On 6 Dec 2012 at 8:16am mickyboy wrote:
"The Phoenix Estate contains only a couple of 100 year old buildings and a bit more from 1919, there is nothing of any architectural heratage worth saving, even the newest parts & structures date back to the early 70's, moving on down the blacksands it is no more impressive, and I am sure a lot of people will remember spring gardens and nile street, houses demolished and never redeveloped, there may well be some employment in the estate but wholesale redevelopement in this part of lewes would greatly increase the employment of the area, enhance the look of this blighted run down dump and provide greater revenue to the council, the only problem is that occasionally it gets a bit wet, in fact in the main building formerly MLG Ltd the water came in at very high tides ever since the river banks were raised in the 60's.
almost all other evidence of the great industrial heritage of lewes has long since been demolished and the land developed, I could name the lot that has been lost since 1970 but that is progress, and indeed I will admit to have demolished a fair number of properties myself. but time moves on, existing buildings become liabilities and would cost more to upgrade than to rebuild, they were built in a deferent era where requirements were different. instead of protesting about the inevitable, start getting involved in shaping the much needed and long over due redevelopement. lewes needs houses, lewes needs employment and affordable off street car parking, form the future, if you want to save the past, make sure the grange is not sold off or turned into some sort of exclusive private residence there is plenty in lewes worth saving, the complete length of north street from the corner of lancaster street to the end of the blacksands is not part of it. and least but not last lookover the river at tescos and the huge industrial estate, that was fields in 1974, not only has it been massively developed, over half of the original buildings have gone and the area re-developed on an alsocontinualbasis as trade and commerce changes.
On 6 Dec 2012 at 9:22am bastian wrote:
No one is trying to stop redevelopement, they just want to make sure that what goes up is to the advantage of the people of Lewes. What the core strategy could end up being may just push Lewes people and jobs out of town and into Newhaven..I'm not sure that is progress. If you think the grange is so special, why not the frontage of the phoenix building..it is possible to build it in to a new build to preserve the meaning of the site rather than just naming the new build " Phoenix mews" or how about "Tiger bay avenue".
On 6 Dec 2012 at 9:58am Clifford wrote:
I think we all know what, left to themselves, developers (aided by our laughable 'planning' officers) would do to this site. That's why there has to be constant pressure on them to ensure, as bastian says, that the development will be 'to the advantage of the people of Lewes' and not just to the absentee owners and their council friends.
On 6 Dec 2012 at 10:54am Townie wrote:
CLIFFORD WROTE " that the development will be 'to the advantage of the people of Lewes"
And what " people of Lewes " would that be ? would that be the couple of hundred arty-farty types, the one's who are so bloody loaded they don't know what to do with their cash next and seem to have the biggest voice in this town or would this be the other 14,000 residents who would love to see Lewes dragged into the 21st century.
On 6 Dec 2012 at 11:38am Southover Queen wrote:
Townie, you seem to be confusing reality with prejudice. I'd count myself one of those "arty-farty types", along with many of my friends. I can assure you that very few of us have more than a couple of quid to rub together.
There are two good arguments for supporting the arts in a community. One is that there is ample evidence that they're good for us. Singing is good for us, painting is good for us, dancing is good for us: humans are creative beings and having ready outlets is valuable whether you're a child or an OAP. And everyone in between.
The second is that the creative sector is one of the few remaining successful contributors to the economy as a whole - in 2010 it was roughly on a par with the financial sector. As I've pointed out in another thread, the arts in general (and in Lewes the performing arts in particular) are a very important contributor to the local/regional economy. Creative people don't just spring up ready made: they need performing/creating/rehearsing spaces to develop and learn. You don't say what the 21st century constitutes, but it would appear that supporting an important part of the UK economy isn't part of it.
On 6 Dec 2012 at 11:49am Jude wrote:
It is possible to support the arts and to have development in the town. Like it or not, townie, the industrial side of Lewes is long gone and what draws people here is the history, location, good schools and creative industries emerging. It's not the same old high street shops that are everywhere, it's what makes the town different. The arts have huge regenerative value and Britain is well known for its creative industries, which are big employers and also wealth creators. I'd like to point people towards a redevelopment in Bristol - admittedly on a larger level - that I had some involvement with a few years ago. It's called 'paintworks'. An old industrial riverside site, it's been redeveloped as a variety of live-work units, studios, larger office spaces and workshop areas. There are also a couple of bars/restaurants and sympathetic landscaping. There's a variety of rentals/ ownership and very mixed use, although mainly creative industries (including tv a studio/ production unit).
I'm sure something as modern and forward looking could be developed in the Phoenix area, but it needs foresight, brave planners and innovative developers to be involved. And a council that are interested in a bit more of the long term development of the town over and above ensuring their mates make a profit on cheap housing units.
Did anyone ever see the Grand Design on the social housing self build project on the outskirts of Brighton ? That's a blueprint for providing cheap and sustainable social housing for those in need and creative strong communities at the same time that I think could be applied to the phoenix site as well.
Check it out here »
On 6 Dec 2012 at 12:38pm SUMO wrote:
@bastian "No one is trying to stop redevelopement" - I think you'll find that the flyers that have been put up around town are asking for no redevelopment at all, ie leave the semi-derelict industrial estate exactly as it is; they even include an old B&W photo of the foundary building in it's heyday to try and convince us that nothing should change. Yet again a minority of vocal Lewes artisans try to protect their own interests by presuming to speak for the town - most of us I suspect would really like to see a senstive redevelopment of this eyesore
On 6 Dec 2012 at 12:53pm Taff wrote:
Personally I would like to see 21st century contributions be produced through anything other than 'arty farty', as mentioned on here, outlets. Lets have a mixed bag of hobbies, small/large manufacturing premises. As a nation we cannot continue without producing something people want to buy.Thats how to redisribute money locally. Not going to see a show once.
I have tried to buy all my Christmas shopping in Lewes this year, though I have not quite succeeded due to lack of availability locally, which would not be the case 20 or so years ago.
On 6 Dec 2012 at 5:25pm bastian wrote:
Jude has just made agood point about long term thinking..I hope you all noticed that, this is exactly what we need to be planning. The general idea is not that the redevelopement is only for artists but that small workshops and larger industrial units should sit along side small shops and affordable housing. If that could be built Lewes wouls have an area suitable for starter units, people wanting to begin a business, with a great idea could afford to do it because they aren't having to take on a vast premesis which they cannot afford to run.
On 6 Dec 2012 at 8:40pm Metatron wrote:
Lewes needs jobs that provide local employment for the people who live in Lewes.
Itā??s no use turning it into a 'Little London' dormitory town that people use at the weekends; it needs a balance of housing that is affordable for local families. We do not need to import people from other areas who like its quaintness, but then set about wanting to change it and hold back its development and evolution.
You can not live on culture and the arts, normal people need to work to eat and to live. There is plenty of culture in Brighton, London, Glyndebourne, and a lot in Lewes already with plenty of venues already under utilised.
We need a balance. I think that Lewes will be damaged for the future generations if we allow this balance to be biased to the most vocal in our society, lots of people in Lewes donā??t have a voice which represents their interests.
On 6 Dec 2012 at 8:51pm Metatron wrote:
Lewes needs jobs that provide local employment for the people who live in Lewes.
Itā??s no use turning it into a 'Little London' dormitory town that people use at the weekends; it needs a balance of housing that is affordable for local families. We do not need to import people from other areas who like its quaintness, but then set about wanting to change it and hold back its development and evolution.
You can not live on culture and the arts, normal people need to work to eat and to live. There is plenty of culture in Brighton, London, Glyndebourne, and a lot in Lewes already with plenty of venues already under utilised.
we need a balance. I think that Lewes will be damaged for the future generations if we allow this balance to be biased to the most vocal in our society, lots of people in Lewes donā??t have a voice which represents there interests.
On 6 Dec 2012 at 9:27pm Zebedee wrote:
Sod them then. Don't speak up and you won't be heard.
On 7 Dec 2012 at 8:07am bastian wrote:
Metatron, I am talking about exactly the same thing as you here, small business space for Lewes people to use to create jobs. Many of the units on the industrial estate are at present, a mix of traditional industry (Teknica) and people doing sign writing or making their own small product for sale. It isn't just arty farty. We are never going to be able to replace the huge employers like John Every ever again.
Some of us have never been to Glyndbourne because it's out of my financial range.
On 7 Dec 2012 at 9:47am GhostBike wrote:
"t again a minority of vocal Lewes artisans try to protect their own interests by presuming to speak for the town - most of us I suspect would really like to see a senstive redevelopment of this eyesore"
Am I the only one who can see the hypocrisy in this?
i.e. - I hate the way one bunch of people who have different views to myself claim to speak for the town. Therefore I, representing another bunch of people, will speak for the town instead.
No-one has any idea what the majority of people in Lewes think about this. They only have an idea about what the people they know and talk to think about it. That will always be a minority of the town.
Given the demographics of the town I would suggest it's a bit different to what the self-appointed spokespeople would claim.
On 7 Dec 2012 at 10:47am Southover Man wrote:
Am I missing something here?
The old HQ Gallery lies abandoned (for community use); the Canon O'Donnell Centre has been left empty (for community use); the old St Anne's School and 4 acres of grounds are actively seeking more community use. I'm sure some of you can think of other under-utilised or empty buildings in the town that are crying out to be used for the benefit of the community.
The town needs the Phoenix area to be redeveloped. A bit of riverside access would be nice, but it's not an area that necessarily needs community space. We have plenty of that in the town that isn't being used.
Perhaps somebody out there can explain why 'creative industries' must be incorporated into the Phoenix area but not elsewhere in the town...?
On 7 Dec 2012 at 12:09pm Farty McArty wrote:
All the pro-/anti- sentiment around the existing "arty" (or "crusty" if you prefer) usage in the Phoenix sector is just venting prejudice on both sides. What Lewes does NOT need is more chain stores in a dismal shopping and office area. Much better to encourage local jobs - particularly small businesses, locally owned - that actually make something, rather than create "employment opportunities" for young people to work in shops and offices and restaurants and have the profits of their work evaporate off into the financial ether.
For those who hate the DFLs - keep out of chain stores as your money is filling their pockets (via their pension funds if nothing else). Maybe some of these arty enterprises will fail, but those that don't are keeping employment and profits local. That said, we need more diversity beyond the arts, and low-cost low-rent industrial units will provide this. It may have to be balanced with a few signature pricey eco-architecture statements for the waterfront. So what? Better that than more overpriced boxes for commuters and the same old high street names.
On 7 Dec 2012 at 2:21pm Southover Queen wrote:
Most of the "community use" provision is buildings whose original use is redundant and which don't actually work for "community use" terribly well, either. As for the HQ gallery: why would an art gallery tacked onto a terrace of modern houses way off the beaten track for visitors and shoppers work? What this means is that instead of a very motley bunch of buildings no-one else wants, what would probably work would be a purpose built multi use arts space set in a mixed area with housing, pleasant outdoor areas, planned parking, small commercial low cost units some light industrial stuff: all mixed up.
Writing the arts off as "for DFLs only, or the super-rich" is a bad mistake. I've added an inspiring video of a group of kids who make their own instruments from other people's garbage...
Watch the video »
On 7 Dec 2012 at 3:55pm Jude wrote:
It's pretty clear that the majority of posters here would like to see similar types of development at the Phoenix - multiple use, multiple size retail and business units that are AFFORDABLE and allow new a start-ups a chance. I heard that units in the precinct cost at least 35k a year rent and thats before business rate (abt 5k a year). For a small scale business this is incredibly expensive and favours chain stores. Lower rents favour independents and also attract people working creatively. I don't think anyone is suggesting the area should be reserved for creative industries though, and that would disadvantage some of the other businesses that operate from there at the moment. Southover man is right - there are over empty 'community' spaces in town that could be utilised, but the relevant councils have to make them available at low rents to make it attractive to community groups. It has to be a mixed local economy that benfits locals as well as visitors - no where can sustain itself on the arts and cafe culture alone.
Having said that the existing units down there have attracted creative entrepeneurs precisely because of the low rents and I admire those who are trying to do something different down there. The fact is that many towns and areas become revitalised and changed by an influx of creatives attracted by the low rents and rundown buildings. This has happened for centuries - Chelsea used to be a dodgy area of London until artists moved in and the effect of artists on areas in London is easily traceable in increased property prices etc (eg, east London warehouses, Hoxton, etc).
Low rents, affordable housing, riverside walk and good landscaping, with an effective flood defence /mitigation system built in. Innovative architecture and a designated arts venue/cinema would be bonuses.
Sadly I don't think the council/planners have the imagination or foresight to do something like this so Lewes probably will end up with a clone town development.
On 7 Dec 2012 at 4:49pm Southover Queen wrote:
Jude, I very much agree with you. I think the existing "community" spaces argument is a red herring, and what is needed is a little vision and imagination. That's because the negative voices seem intent on casting artists/creative people as economically inactive, as well as dismissing the benefits to the community at large of having musicians, painters, architects, jewellers etc etc in their midst. A good mixed development could be of real benefit to our town but like you I fear our political leaders don't have the vision.
By the way, I'd heard much larger rents/rates attached to the Julian Graves shop - a total cost per annum of around £70-80k, which is obviously not affordable to most small businesses. It would certainly explain why it's still empty.
On 7 Dec 2012 at 4:55pm Taff wrote:
SQ. Artists/creative people may well not be economically inactive but they only represent a few. Good working class peoples needs must be represented too.
On 7 Dec 2012 at 7:16pm Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
There seems to be a perception that working class people don't enjoy, participate in or benefit from the arts.
I hadn't realised that liking art was an idea above my station.
On 8 Dec 2012 at 12:23am Southover Queen wrote:
Sorry Taff, that's just class-warrior tosh. Even if you don't enjoy any kind of creative pursuit (a good movie, watching the telly, taking a photograph, singing along to the radio?) how dare you presume to speak for everyone else? The evidence - my direct experience - is that there is plenty of will in this town both to get involved in making things and to enjoy the creations of others, and actually the provision of spaces for doing both of those things is less than brilliant.
On 9 Dec 2012 at 6:25am Lewes trousers wrote:
Ah the old divisions raise their heads. Since the 1960s as Lewes industrial and farming basis faded no one has really had a vision for the town. It has survived on those moving out of London and Brighton, and swathes of creative, intellectual, and those whose work is elsewhere (commuters) It was only stopped from becoming another newhaven because it is easier to get to London from here and because of conservatism with a small c that has preserved Lewes as a bit of a tourist attraction.
Times have changed and the quaint, individualistic, arty I'm middle class but poor needs to cast off if Lewes is to survive. A larger commercial sector needs to be built, jobs on a larger scale are needed. Companies, groups and organisations need to be attracted to Lewes as a different type of town, where they will employ tens to hundreds, not one or two. Unfortunately arty but poor Lewes lost the argument by continuing to vote liberal/green and now we will have Lewes plc which must make a profit. The Phoenix will be developed by the biggest profiteers, and the council will take their cut and that will mean local facilities from roads to southover grange might survive.
On 9 Dec 2012 at 10:59am Sussex Jim wrote:
What both the arty types and the ordinary working people of Lewes need is for the Phoenix area to stay mainly as it is- small to medium industrial units producing goods and services for local people. A few years ago BTR Brakes made up some brake pipes for my classic car. Friendly service, and at a price that was embarrassingly reasonable.
Unfortunately they are now gone; but I see someone now wants to start up a foundry in the area. Good luck to him!
On 10 Dec 2012 at 8:22am Taff wrote:
How presumptious of you SQ to think that my, yes my post was representative of everyone else! They were my words but there just happens to be more working class people in Lewes than arty farties.
The fact that you interpreted in a different way suggests just how unreal your type are!
On 10 Dec 2012 at 10:15am Southover Queen wrote:
I quote: "Artists/creative people may well not be economically inactive but they only represent a few. Good working class peoples needs must be represented too."
If you didn't mean that (a) there are few artists/creatives and (b) lots of "working class peoples" and that the working class people benefit in in no way from the activities of the "arty-farties" then please do enlighten me.
On top of that the inference is very clear indeed that the "working class peoples" would not benefit in any way from the activities or facilities that a scheme might offer. If that isn't what you mean then perhaps you could make it a bit clearer. And while you're at it, perhaps you could tell me why it is that "working class people" shouldn't have access to the arts? Or indeed on what basis you assert that there are more "arty-farties" than there are "working class people" and why it's not possible for an arty-farty person to be working class as well?
On 10 Dec 2012 at 11:29am Taff wrote:
Clearly you prefer inferences to black and white. Read what it said. if you knew me you would know that I do not infer but happily speak my mind. Clearly you think yourself some kind of politician too. They dont read content either else they could not evade the answer.
All I said was there are more working class people to consider and in a democracy they count too. How may of them may be artistic and contribute to economic activity is not important to me, frankly. Sorry if my generalisation confused you.
On 10 Dec 2012 at 11:51am Southover Queen wrote:
You didn't "infer", you "implied". I, not unreasonably, made the inference based on what you'd written. So I have read what you've written, and I'm not sure how politics come into.
"All I said was there are more working class people to consider and in a democracy they count too. How may of them may be artistic and contribute to economic activity is not important to me, frankly."
Excellent. We agree, at least on your first statement. I'm afraid I still quibble at the notion that working class people should not also be arty-farty. That's where I think you're making a false distinction, and so whether or not it's important to you I think you'll find that it matters if a fair and democratic decision is to be reached.
On 10 Dec 2012 at 12:05pm Pete wrote:
Ooooo, handbags, I like a good scrap....
On 10 Dec 2012 at 1:00pm Townie wrote:
Ok SQ, as a working class, and bloody proud of it, Lewesian, i'd like to see a boxing ring and gymn type activity for the kids and i'd love a drive through McDonalds...not because i particularly use it but there are enough people in this town who would.
However, because most of the people on here would look down their snotter at those kind of ideas, it just emphasises everything Taff and a few others have said.
On 10 Dec 2012 at 1:30pm someone else wrote:
Crikey! A Sussex Jim post I agree with. It must be nearly Christmas.
On 10 Dec 2012 at 1:40pm Taff wrote:
Misinterpret as you wish SQ. Good luck to you. I have work to do and am easily bored with peeing competitions.
On 10 Dec 2012 at 3:45pm GhostBike wrote:
I must admit I am highly amused by all the class nonsense on this thread. I bet by any official definition of working class there are very few of them in Lewes. I should know, I come from a properly working class town in the Midlands.
In my job I have access to the census data and I can tell you that Lewes Town has one of the highest ABC1 concentrations in the country. I..e it's one of the most middle class places there is.