On 1 May 2016 at 7:32pm SME 's not corporations wrote:
Further to reading in the telegraph that the European union was a CIA constructed strategic alliance for American interests in our neck of the woods and in one of David Stockman's pieces that corporations employ a measly 5% of the workforce (small to medium enterprises making up the other 95%) i wonder why we would be even considering signing the TTIP agreement. The TTIP is an self serving American corporate takeover of national governance throughout Europe that will destroy the work place (have you ever heard of a takeover where jobs were created not shed) by destroying SME's who make up most employment. So i was glad to read this piece in the guardian about leaked memo's showing that the agreement is far from as in the bag as the narcissistic Obama would have us believe.
Check it out here »
On 1 May 2016 at 7:58pm Positive wrote:
Good to see the leave vote is secure and recent polls put us ahead - for the establishment and the goldman sachs run empire their scare stories and threats are not working but what did they think.
Democracy and sovereignty needs to return to a local level where we can decide our country's future in a sustainable, open and positive way.
TTIP just shows how arrogant the EU is and how desperate they are to sign away democracy and the NHS to prop up their failing political project that is old fashioned, badly run and not fit for the 21st century.
On 1 May 2016 at 8:05pm SME 's not corporations wrote:
Oh and i should add that Obama is pursuing this agreement so aggressively because America is bankrupt with the federal reserve leveraged at 80 to 1. Without this agreement, and with Putin and Xi (also presiding over bankrupt systems) increasingly trading outside of the dollar along with reduced dollar purchases because low oil volumes America as a super power is almost over. This appears to be the driving force for the takeover of our legal system in favour of their corporate jungle courts within the TTIP agreement.
On 1 May 2016 at 8:39pm Mark wrote:
TTIP is appalling but I've long thought that is no way that the French and Germans will agree to it in form that the Americans are pushing for.
On 1 May 2016 at 8:57pm Mavis wrote:
The French and Germans won't actually have any say in the matter, it will be decided for them by the E U. That's why us voting out alters the whole thing for them, they are watching us very intensely. The British people are voting for the whole of the real peoples of the richer EU countries, not the peasant countries.
On 1 May 2016 at 11:40pm Socialists Stay In. wrote:
A similar argument is raised about the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP). If we remain in the EU, the argument goes, Britain would be forced to accept TTIP with all its reactionary impact. There is no doubt that TTIP should be opposed. But to imagine that the UK could negotiate a trade deal with the USA on better terms simply by leaving the EU is naďve in the extreme. However, imagine if Jeremy Corbyn were elected Prime Minister. Would it not make more sense to veto TTIP from within the EU, causing a problem for the EU and the USA, than to be outside with little or no say on what happens in the EU? The same applies on every other issue. It would be far better for a socialist government to be challenging the EU from within and seeking to rally working class opposition from all countries in the EU against its leaders and institutions and the system they represent. Outside the EU, a socialist government could, I accept, still call for support from workers in other countries. But sharing a common enemy with the working class of other countries within the EU would pose the shared interests far more starkly.
Check it out here »
On 2 May 2016 at 2:06am wrote:
British plutocrats are lead architects of the TTIP, they’ll hand over our sovereignty to the offshore corporations they’re shareholders in far more easily if they didn’t have to contend with the interests of other EU member states.
You might as well try to enlist British republicans on the grounds that the Queen’s continued head of state status in the UK is an EU directive, and we’ll be able to drop her in a flash upon Brexit.
On 2 May 2016 at 5:38pm Truth wrote:
'The documents show that US corporations will be granted unprecedented powers over any new public health or safety regulations to be introduced in future. If any European government does dare to bring in laws to raise social or environmental standards, TTIP will grant US investors the right to sue for loss of profits'
Absolutely shocking, please vote leave to protect our NHS.
Check it out here »
On 3 May 2016 at 2:48am Zebedee wrote:
You are being lied to by the Leave.eu campaign. Almost all the politicians driving the Brexit campaign have said they wish to privatise the NHS. And national health services are expressly omitted from TTIP (as they are from the trade agreement with Canada). So yiou can see, the national health services of all member countries will be safer in the EU.
Brexit is a very bad idea. Not only will the resulting instability raise the cost of living to all of us it will enable the Tories to accelerate their agenda to turn the UK into a low wage offshore tax haven. The welfare state will be decimated and workers rights gained through the EU removed.
Brexiters must realise that most of the models other non-EU European countries have agreed with the EU do not allow them to control their borders. In addition these countries pay into the EU but do not have any say in it. Also services are not included in any of the trade agree agreements. As something like 78% of the UKs GDP is generated by the service sector this would be hugely damaging for our country. We will also lose our rebate.
To summarise, leaving the UK will do huge damage to our economy, leave us paying more into Europe whilst having no say, and we will still not control our borders. In addition the subsequent government (almost certainly to be Tory in perpuity especially, as seems likely Scotland leaves the UK) will not serve the interests of the sector of our population most likely to vote for Brexit.
In short a person on a low wage voting for Brexit is a turkey voting for Christmas.
On 3 May 2016 at 6:39am Brexita wrote:
A person on a low wage will continue to be on a low wage due to immigrants forcing wages down. The working classes want out, the remain campaign is made up of the middle class liberal elite. By the way, I am a long standing Labour supporter.
On 3 May 2016 at 7:53am Zebedee wrote:
As I said, all of the post Brexit models suggested by the Brexit camp include the free movement of peoples. The EU require this before they will sign trade agreements with any non-EU European country (EFTA or EAA). So immigration levels are unlikely to change. And don't forget that services, which make up the huge bulk of the UKs GDP, are not included in these agreements either. And we will lose our rebate. Add to that the fact that the EU are unlikely to take our leaving gladly, and will almost certainly go out of their way to make it hard for us, in an attempt to discourage others from leaving, and you have a very sorry and disadvantaged post-Brexit UK.... and the highest possibility that it will not remain the UK for very long as Scotland move to leave the UK and join the EU, where of course they will become net beneficiaries.
You must bear in mind that is not your interests that the leaders of the Brexit camp have in mind, it is their own. They have been lying to you (how much a week do we give to the EU?) and continue to do so. Murdoch, Desmond and the Barclay Brothers are pushing Brexit through all their media outlets as they know that post Brexit they will be more powerful and your average UK citizen will be very much weakened. Watch how quickly the hard won EU workers rights are removed.
You know the EU is a good thing when Murdoch says:
'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'
Be careful what you wish for. The outcome might not be what you expect.
On 3 May 2016 at 8:47am Zebedee wrote:
And back to the original post in this thread. The signing of TTIP by the EU has become increasingly threatened. And with the leaking of 13 of the 17 chapters over the weekend it could easily be a dead duck (watch this space). In the light of this you might want to think about how quickly the Tories would sign up to this agreement in a post Brexit world. And bear in mind also that the Tories were the only EU state with a National Health service that did not want to remove it from the agreement!
Again, be very careful what you are voting for. If you are voting 'out' it is encumbent on you to gain all the facts and not just those fed to you by the leave campaign and the hugely dominant pro- Brexit media. There is a distinct possibility that this vote could change the face of Europe. It is much more important than a National vote. Ask yourself, do you think the long period of peace we have enjoyed in Europe could be due, at least in part to the existence of the EU?
On 3 May 2016 at 11:45am Vote IN. wrote:
TTIP is probably dead in the water anyway,but remember that the British government has done everything possible to push the most extreme version of TTIP, just as they’ve fought against pretty much every financial regulation, from bankers bonuses to a financial transaction tax. While Germany and France were concerned about TTIP’s corporate court system – which allows foreign business to sue governments for “unfair” laws like putting cigarettes in plain packets – the UK secretly wrote to the European commission president demanding he retain it.
The movement to defeat TTIP received the support of well over 3 million Europeans in a little over a year. In Berlin, 250,000 people took to the streets last October. The deal was meant to be signed by now – but together, Europe’s people have seriously stalled things. Would it really be possible to stop such a move if we couldn’t link up with campaigners across Europe? If being in the EU has brought us TTIP, it has also brought us the means to stop it.
On 3 May 2016 at 12:37pm Polly wrote:
All true.
It's so obvious that the Tories want to turn the UK into a low wage, tax haven for the rich. All their policies point towards this, tax breaks for the rich, decimation of the welfare state, privatization of the national health service by stealth, privation of education (the selling off of our schools), no action on UK tax havens (despite fine words), concentration on service and financial services and little encouragement of engineering and manufacture sectors etc. A vote for Brexit will be a vote to accelerate these policies.
Link below to download the leaked TTIP douments if anyone fancies a quick read.....
Check it out here »
On 3 May 2016 at 6:10pm Mark wrote:
Gosh, I think that Zebedee and Vote in have convinced me. Not TTIP-related but some of the examples given remind me of how the UK made the decision to destroy our steel communities by vetoing an effective European tariff on steel. I hope that all who are intending to vote are aware that they'll need to register online before June 7th. The electoral registration system has changed in an effort to make it more confabulated and confusing.
On 3 May 2016 at 6:47pm plebs wrote:
God all the remainers are so thick. This is a political project about creating a new country how stupid do you have to be to think it's not about this?
democracy is more important that your pointless postering about TTIP an EU creation with the US.
It will mean the destruction of the NHS if you vote remain so I hope you understand that.
On 3 May 2016 at 8:27pm plebs wrote:
We need to close the doors and get rid of every foreigner and traitor in the country .Dont you understand you thickos?
On 3 May 2016 at 9:34pm Zebedee wrote:
@plebs. Demonstrably the EU is more democratic than the UK. The problem is that people have not taken the time to understand how it works. When you do you'll see the set up makes a lot of sense. It certainly makes a lot more sense than the UKs democracy which has left us with a government elected by only 24% of the voting public and pushing through policies even they didn't want (i.e. not mentioned in their election manifesto, e.g. the academisation of schools). Any unrepresentative first-past-the-post electoral system, with a non-elected House of Lords, a lobby system and relying on the whip system to force MPs to vote against their conscience could ever be considered democratic. The EU is nothing like this. It is representative and democratic. Experts are hired to formulate policy guided and authorised, and then voted in/out by our elected representatives. Try reading about how it works by following the link below. It is the child of all parliaments, unlike the old, out of date system the UK suffers (and which does us so much damage) which is rooted in history, class division, confrontation and vested interests.
Check it out here »
On 3 May 2016 at 9:40pm Zzz.. wrote:
@Zebedee.
I think that might have been a bit above plebs head. And therin lies the problem. A referendum assumes that voters are informed and have a modicum of intelligence. Sadly not the case in the UK any longer.
On 3 May 2016 at 10:06pm serious wrote:
''Demonstrably the EU is more democratic than the UK'' well done for possibly the most dimwitted sentence uttered yet on this forum.
Please tell me how the EU quashing every single referendum that has gone against it is democratic??
You are a dangerous fantasist.
The EU is not just undemocratic it is positively antidemocratic with laws imposed by an unelected commission who have no accountability with any electorate and an utterly impotent and meaningless parliament that merely rubber stamps it's ludicrous policies.
Perhaps you don't to remember that UK electorate voted to retain FPTP system which despite it's drawbacks has allowed a remarkable history of stability and strong governance in this country.
To suggest that the EU system, which most resembles the soviet union in it's structure, is somehow preferable to the UK parliament, an incredibly successful and organic system of governance that has evolved carefully over hundreds of years, shows your lacking in political education and understanding.
The EU now accounts for 60% of UK law, these are not debated or scrutinised in parliament. The EU is now pushing for an EU army, EU police force and the visa free travel for 75 Million Turks despite it lacking an ability to control or keep an eye on who enters the schengen area. None of this has been voted for or asked for by the UK yet it is set to be imposed upon us with potentially disastrous ramifications.
Here's a link by someone who actually knows what they are talking about explaining the undemocratic nature of the EU.
Check it out here »
On 3 May 2016 at 10:46pm if art wrote:
do yer history
been fighting these foreigners for 100s of years now..
do any of these other countries ave an NHS they can use rather than coming over ere and getting a freebie..
our lads fought two worlds to keep Britain great as the empire crumbled, pity we didn't team up with the russians and get rid of the toffs, after some tough times I recon we'd be on top now..
what about these flipping toffs letting them corporations off billions of tax money and the Sir Peter rip off green walking around his new 100 million pleasure palace yacht when he should be behind bars stealing all the workers pensions, do the meths..
PS, I'm not religious, it makes my laugh how the christians have fighting each other over the centuries, yet now the churches have been converted into flats or Wetherspoon pubs we must be heading towards having more islamical mosques in the UK than christian churches whats that about..
On 3 May 2016 at 10:48pm Vote IN. wrote:
The EU leave campaign has dishonesty at its core – and it hasn’t convinced us.The case for staying in is quite simple: the UK is a net beneficiary in every sense. All you get from the Brexiters is conflicting narratives.
Check it out here »
On 3 May 2016 at 10:54pm plebs wrote:
Listen to what i fart says you stupid tw@ts.He knows the score.
On 3 May 2016 at 11:11pm Dictionary wrote:
Oh how original, the little brainwashed EU extremist calls those calling for re-engagement with the wider world and not just 28 little countries in Europe, xenophobic...
I believe you are mistaken in the meaning of the word beneficiary, what you are looking for is fact net contributor.
We are in *fact* contributing to the EU to the tune of Ł13 Billion pounds a year.
Enough in *fact* to wipe out the entire domestic cuts program, or to build a fleet of new hospitals or to train thousands of doctors, nurses, and teachers and that's in one year.
On 3 May 2016 at 11:38pm Redballs wrote:
Great article @serious, everyone should read it. Writen without any scares in it I found quite refreshing and mature.
On 4 May 2016 at 1:02pm Zebedee wrote:
@serious. You said 'The EU is not just undemocratic it is positively antidemocratic with laws imposed by an unelected commission who have no accountability with any electorate'.
This is incorrect but unfortunately many Brexiters also think it's correct. I wonder why? A quick read of the page I've linked to below will show you how it works but in case you can't be bothered to find out the facts (as seems the case) I'll write it here too.
The commission are appointed by our elected representatives, to work for them (I.e us). You might think of them as a little like our civil service. The commissioners propose and work out the details of policy. This policy is then voted on by our elected representatives. So, two lots of democracy for you there!
You should also bear in mind that EU electoral system is a representative one, so unlike our first past the post system which effectively excludes input from any but the party that win, all shades of opinion are represented, and in proportion to the opinions held by the population represented.
It is tragic that we are about to vote in the most important referendum in our lifetimes and still there is hardly anyone in the Brexit camp who has attempted to look any further for facts than the Murdoch, Desmond, and Barclay Bros newapers or the lying Leave.EU campaign.
C'mon chaps you owe it to our country to know what you are talking about before you vote!
Check it out here »
On 6 May 2016 at 6:01am Local wrote:
Who wants to search out and investigate the background of the important issues shaping our very future from independent, or at least a balanced range of sources? What's wrong with blindly following what we're told by the newspapers that give us everything else we want, and therefore must be the same as us - good sports news, an easy to read telly guide and the occasional boob eye-full?
Seriously, I don't know why people with your attitude don't just clear off and go and live in North Korea.
Or something.