On 18 Mar 2009 at 12:15pm Toque wrote:
Good to see Norman Baker investigating ways to put an end to extortionist wheel-clampers.
On 18 Mar 2009 at 4:00pm Mr Krabbs wrote:
Im not being funny but is it not the responsibility of the driver NOT to park illegally.
It's a very very simple solution, If you park ilegally, expect to get a ticket or clamped.
There really isn't anything else to say on the matter
On 18 Mar 2009 at 4:21pm Toque wrote:
There really is something else to say on the matter.
Why should your car be clamped?
If you park illegally then why not expect to have your car crushed, or be shot through the back of the skull? We can talk about what is appropriate without disagreeing on the general concept that parking illegally is wrong.
The basic premise of your argument is that parking illegally (or mistakenly) can and should be punished by wheel-clamping, an automatic fine, and, ultimately, confiscation of your vehicle - which in the case of a small section of society is also their home - with no redress.
As Baker points out this is not the case in Scotland.
On 18 Mar 2009 at 4:21pm Lewes Laugher wrote:
I agree Mr Krabbs, but I think what Toque is talking about is extortionate wheel-clampers. You can wheel clamp without being extortionate.
On 18 Mar 2009 at 4:23pm Lewes Laugher wrote:
Sorry Toque, I shouldn't have barged in there.
On 18 Mar 2009 at 4:23pm Mr Krabbs wrote:
It's irrelevent how much it costs. If the "fine" was £10,000, do you think more people would be more wary about where they park ?
On 18 Mar 2009 at 5:01pm Mystic Mog wrote:
Torque I have to agree. I believe that the impetus came from the lot who patrol the parking near Laura Ashley.
If the fine / punishment should proportionate and consitant across the UK. Otherwise lets shoot all owners of incorrectly parked cars. Of course this would be a deterrant but disapportionate when compared with serious crime etc.
Prevention is better than cure. So in the case of the parking by Laura Ashley, the owners would better of putting up a barrier. Their parking problem would go away and they would not have to employ expensive clampers and this would be possibly cheaper for them in the long run.
On 18 Mar 2009 at 5:06pm Toque wrote:
That's OK, the more the merrier.
Having witnessed those clampers down by Waitrose lying in wait for people visiting the car boot sale on Sunday, I have to say that I'm not in favour of it. There's no need for it - to me it just looks like a scam by the unscrupulous in pursuit of the careless. Daylight robbery. If they ever did it to me I'm quite sure I'd be up on an assault charge.
On 18 Mar 2009 at 5:12pm Toque wrote:
We're dealing with a dimwit. The scale (or severity) of the fine (or punishment) isn't irrelevant, Mr Krabbs. People are generally more law abiding in Saudi Arabia, because there are very severe punishments under law, but that end doesn't justify the means.
On 18 Mar 2009 at 5:25pm Mt Krabbs wrote:
It's what's wrong with society today....no one is prepared to be responsible for their own action, it's the "blame everyone else" culture.
We park illegally, get clamped and fined and blame everyone else except our stupid bloody selves.
Take a good look at yourselves and repeat after me
"i will be be responsible for my own actions"
On 18 Mar 2009 at 7:41pm Toque wrote:
I'm no student of jurisprudence, but I think that if you were to ask one they would tell you that the law has to be seen acceptable to the majority of society, and punishment seen to be proportionate to the offence. If this does not hold then it brings the law and the authority behind it into disrepute.
Societies in which the law is regarded as extreme and disproportionate are generally regarded as not free, authoritarian, or dictatorial.
New Labour have created so many petty or intrusive laws during their stint in power that there's a body of opinion that now regards our society as oppressive.
The notion of the Freeborn Englishman is laughable - we're now free to do only what the Government allow us to do, reduced to negative liberty instead of liberty.
It's the sort of mentality that leads to DNA databases, CCTV in pubs, biometric ID cars, monitoring of travel and communications. We have nothing to fear if we have nothing to hide (or have done no wrong, purposefully or accidentally).
On 18 Mar 2009 at 7:56pm Agony Aunt wrote:
Toque, are you Citizen Smith (and I claim my £5)?
On 18 Mar 2009 at 8:10pm Crabby wrote:
Mr Krabbs. If you understood the grey of the issue, instead of just the black and white, you would know that Wheelclampers are abusing a number of loopholes in the law, that are barely lega, certainly know fair, and in some cases, might not even be legal loopholes.
I would draw you attention to the man released after 26 years from prison after a miscarriage of justice, created by peope who had the sam,e simplistic understanding of how the world works, as you seem to be demonstrating.
On 18 Mar 2009 at 9:09pm Furness wrote:
Completely agree with Mr Krabbs, there are so many selfish and frankly moronic people out there (in Lewes alone) who park like lunatics and then whinge when they receive fines, i've seen idiots parking in disabled bays, yellow lines (helloo, anyone who has passed their driving test knows you are not allowed to park on yellow lines) and even parking in bus stops, this is extremely dangerous, my brother is a bus driver and he knows what its like when people clutter up the bus lane/stops...and then they have the nerve to turn around and complain that they have received a fine or what-have-you, they're stupid selfish and in all truthfulness shouldnt be driving.
On 19 Mar 2009 at 7:46am happy-go-lucky wrote:
well said furness and mt krabbs
On 19 Mar 2009 at 8:57am grumpy trader wrote:
so after all said and done, what did the council want to achive with this, money ? well they sold themselves short there, free traffic movment, nope not got that as parking attendents have no rights, to direct traffic, and yes there loads of spaces in the high street, for shoppers to use, but dont, lets hope when october comes, someone can make sense of all this mess, we all forget that n.c.p. still collect monies from residents who pay to park outside their homes, easy come easy go !
On 19 Mar 2009 at 9:15am Mystic Mog wrote:
Grumpy: wrong post. We are talking about private clampers.
Krabbs please re-read Toque's postings. Illegal parking is wrong and would say that we all agree, so no need to reiterate this again and again. The issue is with private clampers. I suggest that you look into this subject and see how many innocent people have been fleeced.
On 19 Mar 2009 at 9:31am Crabby wrote:
Mystic Mog is right. The subject is illegal clamping, not parking tickets or clamping of cars, such as ones that haven't paid tax. The world is not black and white, and in clamping there is some very murky grey. And on the subject of grey areas, Furness, I passed my driving test first time, possibly because I understood that it is perfectly legal to park on double yellow lines in certain circumstances. I suspect that some of these pro clamping enthusiasts should watch Watchdog occassionally, to learn about the criminal activities some of these companies get up to,
On 19 Mar 2009 at 11:39am Turnip wrote:
I've dealt with C2C parking before, in brighton, where they sorted out what was a real headache for some people in my building. They put warning notices everywhere, clamped a couple of people, problem solved..The key is whether people have been warned adequately.
The trouble with the Laura Ashley parking is that there are no notices on the Laura Ashley shop itself last time I looked (this presumably is because LA don't want them on their wall, it may be that they don't own the parking space land on which everyone gets clamped so don't want to be involved). So if you park facing in, you don't see a warning. This would presumably be grounds for a civil case against the clamper.
A gate costs money and is a hassle for people. On the other hand painting "PRIVATE PARKING" on the ground would be quick, cheap and less likely to be contested.
On 19 Mar 2009 at 11:58am Mystic Mog wrote:
Fair points. I thing that LA has notices up. However clamping on a Sunday maybe a bit unnecessary and some parkers may assume, incorrectly, that Sunday is OK because the rest of the town is. The spaces there are, I believe, for workers in adjoining buildings.
I have seen the guy from C2C just sitting in his van on a Sunday waiting for someone to park there and then he pounces.
On 19 Mar 2009 at 1:45pm Toque wrote:
Clauses 17 to 22 of the Magna Carta state that fines should be proportionate to the offence.
On 19 Mar 2009 at 9:50pm Furness wrote:
FYI Crabby I am not completely half-witted and I fully realise you are allowed to park on double yellow lines in some cases, but there's lots of selfish people out there who ignore these allowances and think they can just park whenever they want on lines, lines with kerb markings, disabled bays, bus stops, etc etc...not just in lewes but everywhere. They think they are above the law and its time they realise they're not. They screw things up for the rest of us responsible drivers and fully deserve fines, clamping, etc. And no I am not a warden or a clamper, I just use my brains when I park.
On 20 Mar 2009 at 8:16am Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
"we all forget that n.c.p. still collect monies from residents who pay to park outside their homes, easy come easy go ! "
Given that the number of residents' permits sold way exceeds the number of spaces available, it's more the case that residents pay to have approximately a 50:50 chance of parking in roughly the same area of town as their houses.
Even though it doesn't affect me, I feel a wave of outraged indignation every time I think about it. It really is money for next to nothing. For someone who dosen't park in Lewes on weekdays because they use their car for work, it's getting to the point where it's almost not worth bothering with the residents permit, but paying to go in a public car park on Saturdays.
On 20 Mar 2009 at 3:15pm Angle-grinder Man wrote:
h t t p:// news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3112670.stm
On 20 Mar 2009 at 5:30pm Andrew Richardson wrote:
Furness, I don't know why you keep talking about parking in bus stops/disabled/double yellow lines. These are infringements that few people deny are are nuisance and are handled by NCP on behalf of the local authority. The fines are high enough to discourage people from doing it, but not crippling, and more importantly there is a right to appeal. People might not like it, and in Lewes it's probably a bit overzealous, but it's reasonably fair.
We're talking about private clamping companies who, in a very short space of time can clamp your car (£105 + VAT), tow it away (120ish I think) and store it at 20 + VAT per day with **no right to appeal**. Some are also saying that if their charges go over about 500 they can sell your car. This could all happen in an afternoon, whilst you're visting a friend/relative/whatever, and you might not even know you've done anything wrong. The law is stacked against you - damage the clamp and you open yourself up to a charge of criminal damage. The sort of people who work for these companies aren't usually the type to be messed with and make the NCP lot look like pussycats. Personally, I think it's legalised extortion and in Scotland it was ruled by a court of law as being just that.
So although landowners should have a right to keep their property clear of unauthorised vehicles, in my opinion the predatory and opportunistic nature of these clamping companies should be clamped down on (see what I did there!). A balance must be struck.
I've never been clamped (yet), by the way.
On 20 Mar 2009 at 11:15pm Geoff wrote:
If a car is causing such a problem blocking a space that it needs to be clamped. How does a clamp help keep the space more free?
On 21 Mar 2009 at 4:51pm Furness wrote:
Actually, AR you are wrong. Read above. It started being about clamping and then someone started talking about illegal parking and fines. So that is why I added my pennys worth.
On 22 Mar 2009 at 12:41pm DEMON 2 wrote:
THERES WAYS TO TAKE OF CLAMPS