On 1 Jan 2017 at 2:12pm TC wrote:
2017 is the year the right has to start actually delivering. Brexit has to start meaning more than Brexit and Trump has to start actually being a president.
I suspect all the left has to do is sit back and wait. Because sometimes people only really learn when their wages actually start falling or prices actually start going up. In the world of post truth these are the only truths that really matter.
On 1 Jan 2017 at 3:54pm What did I just read … wrote:
TC you really live up to your perceived name of Total C0ck
That last sentence is the biggest load of BS since Donald Rumfelts 'known unknown' b0llox
You really are up your backside
On 1 Jan 2017 at 4:36pm One good man wrote:
You can't handle the truth.
On 2 Jan 2017 at 1:03pm TC wrote:
Actually what I wrote was fairly simple. Perhaps your lack of comprehension, and inability to actually make a reasoned argument against what I said, says more about your level of intelligence than anything else.
Those on the right do tend to be a bit thick.
On 2 Jan 2017 at 1:50pm Dear Lord … wrote:
TC your sanctimonious self satisfied nature is a real joy
On 2 Jan 2017 at 2:39pm TC wrote:
Bog standard right wing response: "You are just as bad as me, therefore I'm not so bad"
And still no actual substantive points to make.
On 2 Jan 2017 at 3:13pm Bob wrote:
As soon as you gave an opinion as if it was undeniable truth and don't provide any evidence or logic for how you formed that opinion you lose the argument TC. Classic UKIP and Momentum move though. You've opened by making the same kind statement as saying the NHS will get 350 million a week or Corbyn will win an election.
On 3 Jan 2017 at 7:01pm TC wrote:
Today's loss of our most experienced negotiator, because the Brexiters can't trust anyone who knows enough about the EU to know what they are doing, provides the latest evidence that I'm just about spot on
On 3 Jan 2017 at 9:24pm Bob wrote:
Spot on about what? Your post is the perfect example of the post truth you claim to speak against. Here's a breakdown for you.
A) opening statement. What does the right have to deliver? And why? Post truth rule 1 is to make an ambiguous statement anyone can transpose their fears and resentment onto while being so vague there's nothing to pin a challenge onto.
B) Brexit. Are you suggesting this is what the right needs to deliver? Conflating it with Trump makes that your implication but I'm sure you know strongly left areas won it for the Leave campaigners and even the sainted Tony Benn's words were used by leavers on the left. So now you're blaming one side of the political spectrum for a broader collective opinion. Very post truth.
C) create a vague unclear "other". Another very post truth behaviour. In this case the people you think only capable of learning when hit with a hardship stick. I hope you're not involved in politics. Positioning yourself in a "clever" elite in the hope people align with you so they can feel "clever" too? Trump and Gove do that.
4) misdirection, by speaking by out against the very thing you're doing, whether conscious or sub conscious. Another post truth classic. In the world of post truth the only truth that matters is the objective one, not the one people try and manipulate us to believe. If you made a single substantive point people might argue against it. You didn't though. You followed the post truth technique of implied dread, and opinions, without any actual truth presented. I doubt you did it deliberately but just wrote to suit your agenda. Sadly I don't think you'll see it.
On 4 Jan 2017 at 6:12pm TC wrote:
Oookay....from the top.
A) The right has to deliver Brexit because the whole point of the Brexit vote was to mollify the populism of UKIP and try to ensure the Tories didn’t lose any more votes to them. Nothing post truth about that.
B) Lefties of a certain age can indeed be largely very euro sceptic, projecting a capitalist project onto the EU where those of the right project a socialist one, but this remained an exercise that was very much about allaying immigration based fears, more a concern of the right. As for conflating Brexit with Trump ( 'brexitrump' perhaps?) I’ll avoid any post truth implications by using their own words. On 18th August Trump tweeted “They will soon be calling me MR. BREXIT!” . And of course hilariously on the day after the referendum he tweeted: “ Just arrived in Scotland. Place is going wild over the vote. They took their country back, just like we will take America back. No games!” even though Scotland voted to remain . Meanwhile Farage retweeted Trump suggesting that he would make a great UK ambassador to the US on 22nd November. Why might he think that?
C) There’s that word....elite. Used because I dare to suggest that some people don’t learn until they are personally affected. When it is simply the truth all too often. And one does not have to be part of an elite to know that. So who is doing the othering ? Or is this getting too meta?
D) (Rather than 4?) Was so convoluted that the only response is to present the words of those who have lead us to this (see above)
I know that the right will try to disavow Brexit as the wheels come off. And as you seem to be doing. But it won’t work.
On 4 Jan 2017 at 6:43pm Bob wrote:
It'd be funny if it wasn't so alarming.
On 4 Jan 2017 at 6:46pm Bob wrote:
You probably won't understand why it's alarming. But you've totally missed the point that your original post was awful, Post-Truth approach to politics from end to end. No later justification or explanation will change that fact. I was right too, sadly you just can't see it even when it's been spelled out.
On 4 Jan 2017 at 6:50pm TC wrote:
And yet the irony is that I have addressed most of your points. But instead of responding properly you have just repeated your original assertion.
Let's try this again: do you still deny the explicit link between Brexit and Trump's election asserted by Trump and Farage themselves?
On 4 Jan 2017 at 7:10pm SHS wrote:
TC reality is much simpler than you seem to think. People voted for Brexit for a variety of reasons (such as for democracy, patriotism, or just being fed up with Cameron to name just a few). Not all Brexiters are right-wing - indeed since the Transition Town folks are in favour of localism one might expect that they voted for Brexit. Finally the only connection between Brexit and Trump is the failure of many in power (and pollsters) to know what matters to the working (or ex-working) man in the street. Ignore Trump's tweets. Ignore Garage.
On 4 Jan 2017 at 7:20pm Bob wrote:
There's no irony at all. I called you out and you've ignored that and changed the argument. You've now gone for one you think will put me on the back foot because you assume I'm on the right. Why deny a link? There is obviously one, but your explanation is simplistic and widely misses the real reason the link is significant. Trump made the link in Scotland before he connected with Farage because it was a useful parallel to show a possible unexpected swing towards someone claiming to be a political outsider. The line was fed to Trump by Sean Hannity of Fox News before the referendum who suggested Trump could mop up disaffected Sanders supporters and the anti-Hillary undecided as polls were already showing a Brexit protest vote was going to take place, just not as much as actually happened. Only later did Trump connect with Farage and make any "link" personal. So the "link" is one that undermines your point that Brexit came from the right. The link came from journalists on the ground recognising people of all political views could be persuaded into a rejection of the "establishment". The truth is uncomfortable but it's the truth. I'm on the left by the way and don't want to leave the EU. Misinformation and ignoring cause and effect compromises everything we do so keep going and I'll keep arguing against it.
On 4 Jan 2017 at 8:20pm TC wrote:
It is simply not credible to pretend that the decision to hold the referendum was as a result of anything other than the politics of the right in this country. Remember the farcical "reformed EU" that Cameron was trying to negotiate? What the focus of that negotiation was? Immigration. And the price for Brexit going pear shaped, which it will, will be paid by the right.
On 4 Jan 2017 at 8:25pm TC wrote:
@SHS Ignore Trump and Farage? After what has happened over the last year? I think not.
Whatever the reasons people voted for Brexitrump, whatever their politics, the reality of right wing policy being enacted is about to hit home. A tory negotiated Brexit is bound to mean fewer workers rights. And the republicans have already stated dismantling Obamacare.
This is going to hurt.