On 8 Jan 2016 at 9:19am pn wrote:
I trust everyone will be joining the brave junior doctors in their fight for more cash. It was reported last year that Average GP earnings fell below £100,000 for the first time since Labour introduced its laughably generous contract a decade ago (Family doctors received a 25 % rise in 2004 ).
Don`t laugh, they have to stay students for years. That must be awful for them eh and then, omg I am told they have to work quite hard!!! Good lord are we living in the middle ages.Cruel and unusual surely ?
Doctors are of course themselves, private contractors to the NHS who held the whole thing to ransom from its inception in the words of Bevan he had to “stuff their mouths with gold” which contributed to the first NHS financial collapse within a year or two.
As we know, the country currently has a National debt over 80% of its GDP and we are hardly embarked on the generational agony of repayment. So there is no money so who do we give the bill for another skiing holiday or two for the Doctors?
Magic money tree?
(Hope I am not sick any time soon…eeek ..)
On 8 Jan 2016 at 9:37am Clifford wrote:
The thing about satire, pn, is that it's supposed to be funny. This is dire stuff.
On 8 Jan 2016 at 10:02am Mr Ryder wrote:
I hope you don't confuse me with this person in future Clifford, dire stuff indeed..
or is PN different from Paul Newman in the other thread? who knows..
On 8 Jan 2016 at 10:10am Mrs bun wrote:
What a load of twaddle. Junior doctors are not private contractors to the nhs. The idea that there isn't a '7-day a week' nhs currently is untrue - take a look at any hospital. Citing your own 'potted history' of the inception of the nhs as evidence to support your point of view doesn't bear any relevance on the junior doctors' situation. Why should they have a rubbish contract forced upon them, and accept a pay cut for working in an increasingly cash-starved system which requires more and more of them? Why aren't you angry about Mr Hunt's behaviour throughout this mess?
On 8 Jan 2016 at 10:46am Mark wrote:
My sincere apologies Mr Ryder. He's just a lunatic who writes drivel. I think we all know that it isn't GPs that are striking and he does post under multiple names as a weird attempt at subterfuge.
On 8 Jan 2016 at 11:09am Paul Newman wrote:
A Doctor’s status has been as a private contractor since the original NHS deal was done
The “stuffing their mouths with gold “quote, and the circumstances surrounding it are ( in ordinarily informed circles) sufficiently well-known as to not need reference.
There has been discussion of whether this status should be given up but it has not been.
The pay deal that was described by the BMA as “A bit of a laugh” was as I have described it.
Quite why the Junior Doctors terms should be discussed outside their future as private profiteers many of whom make much much more than £100,000 is something of a mystery to me. No doubt I have misunderstood . They are probably entirely different people who happen to be wearing similar white coats. The deal done by other sorts of physician is even more hilariously profligate.
Thanks to the brains trust for setting me straight. I shall now march with these raggedy shoeless victims after all we can always knock a bit more of welfare, stop building schools, hey no problem …
Up the Union!
On 8 Jan 2016 at 11:25am Ed Can Do wrote:
Paul, your Tory overlords are always keen to trot out the same old line that huge salaries are necessary to recruit and retain the best talent at the top of the banking sector as a way to justify the millions and millions of pounds paid to city fatcats, even when they demonstrate a complete lack of ability to run a company within the legal framework of our country. Do you not think the same argument should apply to doctors? Let's face it, if a CEO mucks up then the share price of their company takes a dive, they leave and join another board somewhere and after a time the company recovers. If a doctor mucks up, people die. I would far rather spend a ton of cash attracting the best doctors in the world to the UK than spend even bigger tons of cash attracting the "best" bankers.
If you're looking for bloated, public sector salaries to complain about you'd be better off looking at the ever growing ranks of special advisors the government employs, the number of which has shot up under the Tories, despite Call me Dave's dubious stat massaging to claim there are now fewer than under the last government (There are fewer than the coalition, but half as many again as under the last Labour government and they had a ridiculous amount).
On 8 Jan 2016 at 12:17pm Paul Newman wrote:
Gasp …..I don`t have Tory overlords and as I locate myself in the thin sliver between Liz Kendall ( who I love dearly )and, let us say, Ken Clarke I am not even sure I am all that Tory.
On the banks and their position I have mixed feelings overall but it is part of a global market and a vast contributor to things like bloated public sector pay deals .( Yes I know about the state guarantees but some other time )
Public sector salaries are not established by the market and as Marxists used to understand it is subject instead to “Plan Competition” that is to present urgent need , moral necessity and so on as compared with other claimants
It (whatever it is ) will always be about to collapse . The Soviet Union grappled with this problem for years, in some ways with clearer minds than we do. They thought miners should get more than Doctors .It’s a thought.
A determined and unified refusal to give in to the Doctors blackmail will see them off for now . They know full well they can be replaced by better IT , outsourcing and use of wonderfully well qualified Polish Doctors . All of these things have to happen if the NHS is to be saved and frankly, if a few privileged, gravy train riders have a marginally less comfortable trip, I shall not lose sleep .
Anyway I have always found the forelock tugging to “Doctors” and “Lawyers “ we do in the UK faintly disgusting . The US has a much more healthy appreciation of their venality and humbug
On Spads ... well ..um whatever...down with Spads
On 8 Jan 2016 at 12:30pm had enough of lies wrote:
No one is striking for more money, they are having their contracts messed about with and they work all hours as it is-who wants to be treated by an over worked sleep deprived doctor?
This government has gone out of its way to discredit all public sector workers in an attempt to privatise the whole thing-look how well that worked for the railways-costs more and the trains are over crowded.
On 8 Jan 2016 at 1:09pm Slarty wrote:
If there is a recruitment and retention problem and many Junior Doctors make more than £100k (per Paul Newman), then a simple way to cure the problem is for the NHS, Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings ('ASHE'), Labour Force Surveys and the media to publicise this fact and not tell lies about basic earnings being £40k to £55k.
Or could Paul be wrong? Could the recruitment and retention problem be that Junior Doctors study for 3 years at University (needing 3 As at a level to get in), about 5 years to complete their degree and then a couple of years Foundation, before possibly 5-8 years for a specialisation, contract for an average 48 hours per week (but can and do choose to work additional hours). They are guaranteed to 1 day off each week (or 2 a fortnight) and a 20 minute rest break every 6 hours. And they get slagged off for not working 7 days a week, 24 hours a day (which they do). If I had the brains to become a Doc, I'd realise there are easier ways to make much more money!
On 8 Jan 2016 at 2:32pm Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
A junior doctor earns £22k -23k. Not a lot for someone with more responsibility than most of us will have in our lifetimes, and after spending 6 years studying. That's less than a newly qualified police officer or a junior manager.
After 4 years of working on the wards, they make around £30k, several thousand a year less than a police officer with a few years experience or a middle manager.
While some will work their way up to the six-figure salary of a consultant, most of them won't, because the structure is quite a steep pyramid.
On 8 Jan 2016 at 4:34pm Country Boy wrote:
As a doctor in training you’ll earn a basic salary plus bonus if you work more than 40 hours a week and/or work outside the hours of 7am – 7pm Monday to Friday.
In the most junior hospital trainee post of Foundation year 1 your basic starting salary is £22,636. This increases in Foundation year 2 to £28,076.
If you’re a doctor in specialist training your basic starting salary is £30,002. If you are asked in your contract to work more than 40 hours a week and/or to work outside 7am – 7pm Monday to Friday, you will receive an additional bonus which will normally be between 20% and 50% of the basic salary. This bonus is based on the extra hours that you work above a 40 hour normal working week.
On 8 Jan 2016 at 5:28pm Another B and B lady wrote:
Thank you country boy and others for challenging, with facts, all the nonsence posted here and elsewhere, about what doctors earn. I have one in the family too and the general public has been hoodwinked by the right wing press as to how much doctors actually earn. Even the £100,000 figure for GP's is a nonsence as most are salaried - i.e. Paid by the Practice they work for and huge numbers are now women and working part time. They definitely do not earn anything like 100k. The senior partners may well be making a hundred grand a year but they are running a business and have taken the financial risk to set it all up. (Oh, isn't that just what most businesses do?). I see (personally) how much responsibility and extra work doctors take on not to mention paying back all the money for a very long training, and I would definitely want to be better renumerated than most are. Consultants are often still paying for their training after several years.
I hope the Junior Doctors can reach an agreement and that Jeremy Hunt will be man enough to climb down and give them a decent new contract for decent pay. I certainly don't want any doctor treating me who has worked beyond sensible hours.
On 8 Jan 2016 at 6:44pm Country Boy wrote:
Sorry to disappoint, but if doctors are so busy, how do they squeeze in their private work? My wife was a private patient on a number of occasions 3 years ago, and all the doctors and surgeons who treated her worked in the NHS too!
On 8 Jan 2016 at 8:03pm Belladonna wrote:
Those are the consultants and surgeons, country boy, not the junior doctors. And my understanding is that they )the consultants) have some sort of contracted hours with the NHS, then work in their private capacity outside those hours. So they may do 4?days with the NHS and 1 day private practice
On 8 Jan 2016 at 8:27pm Englishman wrote:
So, according to Country Boy, a specialist doctor who opts to work a shift system ( like many in the public utilities) will get paid between £36K-£45K a year. Not bad.
Think of those power workers up a pole at 4am. in the driving sleet struggling to get your electric back on by breakfast. Are they paid as much?
On 8 Jan 2016 at 8:28pm Another B and B lady wrote:
You are correct Belladona. The issue in question at the moment is Junior Doctors who working only for the NHS are are finishing their training, prior to becoming a Consultants when a different contract applies.
On 8 Jan 2016 at 9:08pm Paul Newman wrote:
The figures I quoted were form the Health and Social Care Information Centre .In 2013/14, family doctors were paid £99,800 – a decrease of 2.2 per cent on income on the previous year.
Interestingly the reaction of the BMA to this appalling down turn was to say
: “These figures provide yet more evidence of the growing financial pressures faced by general practice...."
Ha ha ... bring on the strike
On 9 Jan 2016 at 9:13am JMMe wrote:
I work in the Public Sector. My colleagues and I have suffered pay freezes, We work very hard on behalf of those we serve. I have a Masters Degree and an undergraduate degree but this means nothing in terms of pay. Yes Doctors have long training but they are also rewarded well for their troubles. They have imposed pay cuts, pay freezes etc on all public sector workers. Why should doctors be any different in these times of austerity. The public service is certainly undergoing huge changes, why should doctors and the NHS expect these too?
On 9 Jan 2016 at 10:09am John Smith wrote:
That is, as usual, a misrepresentation of the facts Paul. GP partners are running large scale businesses vital to their communities. Their earnings have dropped by 25% over the last five years, so actually there's evidence of considerable pressure. GPs are running independent businesses too, so throwing £100k around as if it were in any way representative of average earnings for doctors in the NHS is grossly misleading.
On top of that the evidence is that in spite of what to many must seem like excellent rewards, GP practices are finding it increasingly difficult to recruit doctors, and there has been a huge increase in salaried GPs - doctors employed by the practice rather than running it. They earn an average of around £56k pa after ten years training which is hardly a king's ransom if you compare it with other similar professional groups.
Secondly, as again I'm sure you know but choose not to comment on, junior doctors are not GPs and the strike has nothing whatsoever to do with the average income of general practitioners. What puzzles me most about this is the insistence of Jeremy *unt that this is about a seven day NHS and the junior doctors are somehow preventing it happening, when it's the junior doctors who keep the NHS going at night and at weekends. If they really want to address levels of cover in hospitals then it's the consultants' contracts they need to be tackling.
Check it out here »
On 9 Jan 2016 at 10:46am Mark wrote:
A nice cogent summary of the actual issues Mr Smith. I would just add that Mr Hunt pays lip service to the notion of 24hr cover while seeking to reduce the rate at which it's paid. Junior Doctors supplement their relatively modest earnings by working antisocial hours as things stand.
On 9 Jan 2016 at 2:02pm Country Boy wrote:
JMMe are your degrees necessary for your job?