On 31 Oct 2010 at 10:03pm Logicus wrote:
No-one on benefits should receive more than the minimum wage. Thus lazy b@stards will learn what it's like to survive like us workers and be encouraged to do better instead of the underclasses being paid to breed.
On 31 Oct 2010 at 10:17pm Little Dorrit wrote:
Totally agree. Everyone should read Polly Toynbee's book on the subject of living on the minimum wage.
On 31 Oct 2010 at 10:30pm wallander wrote:
wage per hour or week? If you are working 40 hrs a week at £6 per hour thats £240. You might still get tax credits I think so should be better off than on the dole.
On 31 Oct 2010 at 10:40pm Newmania wrote:
Polly Toynbee earns in the region of £300,000 pa she is the Niece of an Earl. I loved her voyage into the world of the Dinner Lady as if to a lost continent . My auntie was a dinner lady at my school. So what.
On 1 Nov 2010 at 8:31am Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
A single person under 25 getting just over £50 pw in job-seekers would be delighted to get such largesse, I'm sure. The adult rate is only £65.45 a week.
I'm mystified as to how they're supposed to be able to pay 10% of their rent after a year, given that a one-bed flat in Lewes is now over £600 a month.
As for lots of jobs, I read recently that even in Sussex, there are on average 4 people going for evey vacancy.
On 1 Nov 2010 at 8:41am Clifford wrote:
Of course Logicus, as others have said, dole money equivalent to the minimum wage would be generous indeed. You know, don't you, that people on the minumum wage claim housing benefit, council tax benefit etc? What worries me is why we - the taxpayers - have to subsidise employers who pay workers so little it has to be topped up with benefits.
On 1 Nov 2010 at 9:30am wallander wrote:
sadly not all labour is worth very much. The value of unskilled work is bound to decline as more and more is automized. What you are saying to employers is don't offer a job unless a person can live an average lifestyle on it.
Ok, then they will not have a job at all and we will be funding all of their living costs.
An unemployed person has one thing the rest of us don't. Time to study and improve. They may not be academic but they can still improve skills by volunteering etc. Of course there will be some who are incapable of valuable contribution but this is a very small percentage of the population. Most people grow up understanding they have a responsibility to devote time to improve their worth to an employer or client. Those who fail to act on this are at least partially responsible for their position in life.
On 1 Nov 2010 at 10:29am Little Dorrit wrote:
Newmania, it's not like you to go completely wide of the point. Polly Toynbee's antecedents don't have anything to do with this book, in which she undertakes many low paid jobs and gives an assessment of the working conditions, job satisfaction and pay. She does try to live the life involved conscienciously by living in a condemned council flat, although she does admit to escaping back home at weekends for a bit of comfort and a bath. Her aim was to show how bad things are for those on the minimum wage, and I don't see that you or your aunt can argue with that.
On 1 Nov 2010 at 11:09am Newmania wrote:
Little Dorrit -Nothing written or said by Polly Toynbee can be taken straight. I enjoy her stuff but its extreme polemical left wingery. Her oppo is Norman Tebbit who is also a good read.
Was it her Italian home she was escaping to ?
More seriously I think Welfare is an extremely technical and difficult area and I don`t favour populist scapegoating. We have to move to a more conditional system obviously but its not easy
On 1 Nov 2010 at 11:31am Clifford wrote:
Wallander - so you have no objection to a system in which we subsidise employers out of our wages via tax and subsidise landlords?
Newmania - have you swallowed a sensible pill or something? I agree with what you say about scapegoating and benefits being a complex question. But I disagree that Toynbee is left wing - she's an elitist middle class liberal.
On 1 Nov 2010 at 1:13pm Newmania wrote:
She is one of the many people on the left whose model is "The Nordics" to which she constantly refers and which would imply a state tax take of about 70%.
Given that no-one is suggesting we ape the Soviet Union I find it hard to imagine how much more left wing you could get . That she was social affairs editor of the BBC for many years gives you some idea of the bias of state media. Not much changed there .
On 1 Nov 2010 at 3:24pm Clifford wrote:
I suppose it depends what you mean by 'left wing' Newmania. As the Soviet Union was as authoritarian as anything we're likely to have known I hardly categorise it as left-wing, the essence of which to me is libertarian. I see something like the industrial and agricultural collectives in Catalonia at the beginning of the Spanish Civil War as left-wing. (Crushed by the Communists even before Franco got to them, I should add). Toynbee doesn't want to see any fundamental changes in the system, just a little tidying up at the edges by middle class do-godders.
On 1 Nov 2010 at 3:45pm wallander wrote:
no one wants to subsidise wages but what is a realistic alternative? If you increase minimum wages will it produce more jobs? I think that is unlikely.
Would you want to put more people on state benefits by increasing the pay of those in work?
As far as landlords is concerned I would build more houses,private and social but that puts me in a minority. Yes, I would build in the countryside as well.
On 1 Nov 2010 at 4:03pm Clifford wrote:
Wallander - don't you wonder about an economic system in which many people can only work if other workers subsidise employers who are far wealthier than either? I agree with you on building more homes though.
On 2 Nov 2010 at 8:09am logicus wrote:
I actually said no-one on benefits should receive MORE than the minimum wage - that doesn't mean a pay rise for work-shy goths and spotty hoodies!
Assume a 35 hour week if that helps the maths! And they should pay council tax etc just like waged folk.
Tax credits? You have got to pay some'at in before you get some'at out!
JSA - only pay it to those who do community work - trim hedges, litter pick etc. Cut it for those that have a good understanding of 1980's antique values from watching too much Cash in the Attic!
Come on Norm - sort this out!