Lewes Forum thread

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Sack the Doctors and sell off the N.H.S.

On 12 Jan 2016 at 2:26am Tory Voice wrote:
Cameron and Hunt need to grow some balls and sack the Corbynite Marxist quacks who don`t want to work and get on with the privitization of that white elephant the NHS.We all know it is going to be done sooner or later so why not sell it off now while public feeling against the doctors will be at its peak ?Why should the the spongers and shirkers get free health care and why should we pay those overpaid ,lazy spoilt, brat Marxist junior doctors out of our hard earned taxes to keep these scum alive?SACK THEM NOW!
On 12 Jan 2016 at 6:14am Good Morning wrote:
Good morning Paul, I'm sorry you didn't sleep too well.
Perhaps try reading a book instead of looking at a computer monitor.
Recent research has shown that night time monitor use is detrimental to sleeping.
Who knows, maybe you'll learn something.
On 12 Jan 2016 at 6:52am Paul Newman wrote:
Sigh ..this is not me .I don`t hide my identity In fact it is a puerile " satire" on the part of some spotty Trot, too stupid to make an arguement and too angy to be quiet.. Noone wants to sell off the NHS least of all me
I think Junior Doctors are more than adequately rewarded myself and given that it costs us about £250,000 to train them I find their willigness to risk the lives of the sick and scared pretty appalling. The rewards over a career are stupendous and I don`t think this is the right time for asking patients to suffer so Doctors can buy an even bigger second car and a longer holiday in the Bahamas .
On 12 Jan 2016 at 7:48am Phfellow2004 wrote:
The stance of the left wing BMA with this matter has been a disgrace to the medical profession and totally irresponsible.
On 12 Jan 2016 at 9:27am Jinjo wrote:
Be the bloody fireman next as they have to do a four day week
On 12 Jan 2016 at 1:13pm I Love NHS wrote:
I think its a good thing
On 12 Jan 2016 at 1:18pm OBE 1 wrote:
Jingo Is that every week?
Poor soles, and they are so badly paid they all have second jobs!
On 12 Jan 2016 at 1:48pm send in the troops wrote:
These Marxist scum need to be taught a lesson.Declare a state of emergency and send in the military to run our country properly.imprison the doctors and there leader that traitor Corbyn.
On 12 Jan 2016 at 2:06pm Mark wrote:
Paul Newman (or New Labour as he called himself for several weeks - complete with wonky apostrophies), This discussion cropped up several days ago. I and others pointed out that it was junior doctors that were striking. Junior doctors have very modest salaries. Certainly no big cars or trips to Barbados. They are also not striking for more money. They are striking in an effort to preserve their existing employment conditions. Are you so narcissistic that things that other people say don't register with you? Or is it all about "if you repeat a lie often enough...
On 12 Jan 2016 at 2:30pm Mark wrote:
Hey I've just noticed that that Thicko who can't structure an argument not only uses the trademark Newman ` apostrophy but also uses the space before commas and full stops... Sigh, are you sure that it wasn't you?
On 12 Jan 2016 at 4:26pm Paul Newman wrote:
Not me
No they are striking for more money and for political reasons. They want more hours designated as antisocial and it is not to do with safety as the max hours are being reduced. Junior Doctors early about £50,000 in the latter stages of their training, their future prospects are opulent as are their earnings form private work. It has been noticed that the BMA have been Corbynised and I doubt there is much to this strike other than wishing to shoot over the bows of the democratically elected Government who have a mandate to improve the w/e service
It’s the Unions versus the patients as usual, the teachers saw off Gove I except they think they can use their muscle against our representatives in the same way.

On 12 Jan 2016 at 4:46pm Country Boy wrote:
Call me dim but why are they all waving 'Save the NHS' banners? This strike is about their pay surely?
On 12 Jan 2016 at 5:37pm Mark wrote:
Characteristically mendatious drivel Paul, they are striking (for the first time in decades) in opposition to a new contract which offers them a wage increase. The increase is meant to compensate them for a reduction in the number of hours that are classed as anti-social but won't. I work alongside junior doctors and I know that only a tiny proportion of Specialist Registrars earn close to £50k - the vast majority earn less than £30k. That's just you twisting facts (aka lying).
On 12 Jan 2016 at 6:44pm Belladonna wrote:
I know. Let's all those who want to privatise the NHS keep their NI contributions and purchase private health care plans. But of course this would mean them not being allowed to use NHS facilities such as local GPs and A&E, funnily enough there are NO private emergency wards. So if you privateers want to use the NHS you will have to pay full rates. It's a risk you will take - can you afford to have an accident on your level of health insurance? Oh and don't claim too many times - for example if you get secondary cancer, because most private policies will only cover you once. And those junior doctors - well, eventually you'll be seeing them privately when their rates are not an NHS salary but enormous fat consultant's fee.
On 12 Jan 2016 at 7:24pm Sussex Jim wrote:
I think the term "junior doctor" sums it up. As the term junior suggests, when one is learning a trade one has to work as required. Upon graduation a qualified person can then pick a position with hours to suit.
On 12 Jan 2016 at 7:43pm Paul Newman wrote:
Well nurse Mark , the truth is that Junior doctors earn on average £40,000 in the initial stages of training and £56,000 in the later stages. Those are Department of Health's estimates,
Although health is not especially funded overall in this country( about the middle of the OECD per capiita ) we have the second best paid doctors in the World (OECD stat) and the average NHS consultant pension on retirement is worth ….wait for it wait for it ……over £2,000,000 yes that £2,000,000
They pay 10% of the cost of our training and then not feel obliged to work for the people who paid the other 90%. Then they go around accusing patients and tax payers of being insufficiently generous. It is quite hilarious in a dark way and you, you poor sad dupe, you sit there hero worshiping them.

BellaDonna – I support the NHS , I think almost everyone does. This strike is about more money for Doctors. Doctors, I can assure have absolutely no problem with private contractors or indeed fat consultants fees ./ who do you think snags them ?
On the supposed additional cost of private outsourcing precisely the reverse has proven to be true. See Wales
Reform yes , change yes , but the primary purpose which is to provide free health care at the point of use is not under threat from anyone .( Well UKIP maybe ... at oine time )

On 12 Jan 2016 at 8:46pm grumbleweed wrote:
Here's hoping n one of those calling for the dismantlement of the NHS never need emergency care from an individual who has been working up to thirteen hours a day.
Anybody supporting the privatisation of a healthcare system which is free at the point of use should look at dentistry. There are many who simply cannot afford to visit a dentist. Yet we are supposed to be a wealthy nation.
Baroness Emma Nicholson (google it) would no doubt be more that qualified to pass comment on the shortfalls of private healthcare, and no doubt bares the physical and psychological scars to prove it.
On 12 Jan 2016 at 9:35pm Ed Can Do wrote:
Paul, I wouldn't put too much faith in Department of Health estimates if I were you old bean, If you can name a single government project that has cost what it was initially estimated to cost you're a better man than I.

The starting salary for a junior doctor is £23,000 a year. That's not an estimate, it's a fact. Yes, the term junior doctor is a broad one and a misleading one but one would generally have to work at least 5 years (And work 70 hours per week for most of those) to earn anything like the figures you're bandying about.

Now some doctors will get paid a lot more because they work a ton of hours, I don't think that's unreasonable to be honest. Obviously it'd be nice to be seen by a doctor who wasn't at the end of a 13 hour shift but there aren't enough doctors to prevent this. Assuming the agreement was signed off as it currently stands, doctors got a big payrise and assurances they wouldn't have to work more than 40 hours a week in future, where exactly is Mr Hunt planning on finding all the extra doctors needed to make up the short fall in hours? One assumes the same place they're going to find all the nurses now that student nurses have to pay for their own training rather than having it paid for?
On 12 Jan 2016 at 10:18pm leaf wrote:
Junior Drs do not earn £50,000 or forty, make your mind up.
On 12 Jan 2016 at 10:21pm Paul Newman wrote:
Fair point on DOH and fair point on hours (ish). In other countries Doctors are expected fund far more of their training however. Overall given the future prospects security and pension its a very very good deal and still allocated almost entirely along social class lines .
The NHS has been generously treated, especially in England , this puts pressure on welfare education defence and (let us say) flood prevention.
The broader population who, one way or another will pay for this fortunate few are being sold a lie .
Their /our interest and those of Doctors are not the same .They never were, (the Labour Party used to understand this.)
On 12 Jan 2016 at 11:10pm Fairmeadow wrote:
Jeremy Hunt is ordered by his boss to run the NHS at full speed 7 days a week without spending any more money. It would be nice to have a 7-day NHS, but if you aren't prepared to pay the extra cost the only way to do it is to get the staff to work more hours for the same money, which is the basis of the new contract he is trying to impose on the doctors. Especially more hours at weekends, obviously.
If you already work 48 hr a week on the wards, mainly antisocial hours (because the consultants like weekdays and usually leave their registrars in charge at weekends and overnight) and also have to study for your next set of royal college exams, and also have to fit in some research if you want promotion, you probably don't want even more weekends on the wards for a lower sessional rate. Registrars get what most people would think was a decent salary, £40-£50K depending on shift pattern, but they are almost all very tired, and scared of making mistakes fatal to their patients and their careers.
The obvious way to improve the NHS at weekends, which would be a good thing, is to recruit some extra doctors. Problem is that Cameron & Osborne want more weekend doctors without providing more money. Also, there are not any more English speaking doctors to be had, because the UK doesn't train as many as we need even now. We only staff the NHS now by recruiting mercenaries from other countries, and to attract them you have to pay international top whack (which is what Gordon Brown did). Cut the pay, make the conditions worse, and many doctors, especially the international mercenaries but plenty of expensively trained British doctors too, will vote with their feet. Hospitals in Sussex already struggle to compete - you get the same money in Nottingham or Bolton or Newport and your rent is half what it is in Sussex.
On 13 Jan 2016 at 8:53am Paul Newman wrote:
The NHS is only being asked to do what the private sector has long since done , become flexible and be available for its paying customers . It is often mentioned the productivity in this country is quite poor . It is less often mentioned that productivity in the Public sector is far worse .
The rest of the world invest in IT and loses whole tires of management. The NHS throw £20 billion at IT and need more people to do the same job barely any better than they did before
This cannot go on we simply can`t afford it and it is not fair
No-one else has job for life a s £2,000,000 pensions pot an average e£100,000 salary, there are now more self-employed people than people on the state payroll. They all work as and when required and no-one believes Doctors work any harder than anyone else . You have a point that National pay negotiations are an arcane practice no company could afford and you are right .The public should not be obliged to pay for this golden ticket if they cannot oblige the recipients of £250,000 to pay back in which also need review .
The answer here is to look at the way other countries fund training ( ie less) review pensions immediately , look seriously at savings to be made in outsourcing and , in my humble opinion , break up this bloated behemoth into manageable regional parts .
All of this must happen to preserve the principle of free health care, against the resistance of sectional interest
On 13 Jan 2016 at 9:56am Mark wrote:
I'm out. Can't be bothered. Started looking on Google. Turns out that UK doctors don't earn anything like £100k on average. Also turns out that UK doctors are not the highest paid in the world. Stuff that you invent doesn't magically become true as you type Paul.
On 13 Jan 2016 at 11:43am Mark wrote:
Oh I see now that you said "second best paid" rather than best and that there is OECD support for that - or rather OECD support as regards GPs. Our GPs, are of course, very well-paid relative to doctors in general. If you look at rates of pay for doctors worldwide it's a different kettle of fish. Now I'm out. I've been avoiding DIY more than long enough.
On 13 Jan 2016 at 12:12pm Paul Newman wrote:

Check it out here »
On 13 Jan 2016 at 12:13pm Paul Newman wrote:

Check it out here »
On 13 Jan 2016 at 7:13pm Mark wrote:
Anyone who thinks private sector streaming (efficiency) should be applied to the NHS needs their head examining (luckily they are currenty entited to this). I've seen this work in practice in a hospital in Suffolk (Bury St Edmunds, ward G8) and seen seriously sick people lying in their own excrement for hours, and nurses falsifying sheets recording that a patient had eaten when they hadn't. In some cases the patients were unable to reach the food and drink and no medical staff were avaiable so that visitors such as me and my family had to help them. Is this what you want for your family? I've also had compassionate and life-saving treatment in Sussex from the NHS, treatment that I couldn't possibly afford if I had to pay privately. I've seen doctors and nurses who have been stretched to their imits but still managed a friendly smile. I think we all agree on good organisation and lack of waste, but to destroy peoples lives through deliberate neglect in the name of private sector efficiency is just inhumane.
On 14 Jan 2016 at 8:51am Belladonna wrote:
I've just seen this from a junior doctor which describes pretty well the issues and why they are striking.
(Paul - you could learn from this guy in how to frame an argument and write clearly and comprehensively )
"It’s a very complex situation with lots of issues so please excuse the essay…I’ll do my best to be concise but there is a lot to cover!
Firstly, the agreement of 15/16 items was claimed in the press by Jeremy Hunt who later backtracked on this figure. My understanding from the BMA is that although the discussions had reached some positive progress in these areas the written offer actually submitted by the department of health went back on some of these and watered down others, making them anything but agreed.
So why are we striking?
1. Safety:
Currently, hospitals face financial penalties for overworking doctors. These are effective in ensuring we don’t work too many hours and improve patient safety as tired doctors unfortunately do make mistakes. The new contract removes these safeguards. They are proposing a system with no robust means of stopping people being forced to work excessive hours, therefore jeopardising patient safety.
2. Wanting something for nothing:
Jeremy Hunt keeps telling us we need a 7 day health service. I completely agree with this statement. We currently provide the same level of cover for acute/emergency problems 24/7, 365 days a year. If you go to hospital with an emergency on Saturday at 3AM there will be the same number of on call doctors as there would be on a Tuesday at 5PM. We don’t have enough doctors, nurses, pharmacists, radiographers etc etc to provide the same standards of elective work across all 7 days. If we did, this would be fantastic.
He is irresponsibly using a study to claim 11,000 excess deaths per year are caused by the so called “weekend effect”. The same paper he is using as his evidence, clearly states that it would be “rash and misleading” to suggest that these deaths are preventable. It certainly makes no suggestions that these are due to inadequate numbers of doctors at work. Hunt has misused this study to claim we need more doctors working at the weekend to make elective and emergency services equal across 7 days. To do this he has several options:
A) Employ more doctors to enable elective weekend services (He is not proposing this because it costs money).
B) Move more doctors to work at weekends rather than in the week (improves weekend services at the expense of weekdays).
C) Make the current number of doctors work longer hours to cover weekdays and weekends (tired Drs…unsafe for patients).
D) Pay the current doctors less and force them to work more hours to support a policy based on dubious evidence (demoralising, draining, dangerous).
He appears to have opted for D!
3. Staff retention:
Hunt’s proposed changes to hours and pay will hit some specialties harder than others. Some specialties already have a hard time retaining staff due to pressures of workload and the effects the hours have on people’s ability to have a family etc. By cutting out-of-hours pay he is effectively damning some specialties with a heavy on-call demand, such as A&E, to a slow death as medics vote with their feet and emigrate to countries where working conditions are much better. Every time a doctor leaves a training post here there is a gap in the rota that must be filled by the remaining doctors. Having worked on a rota with only 50% of the staff that should be on it, I can promise you this is absolutely punishing, demoralising, stressful, unsafe and leaves little incentive for the remaining doctors not to follow their colleagues to a beach in Australia! Rota gaps get plugged, where possible, by locum doctors. They are often on 2 or 3 times the money of the doctors in training posts they are working alongside – not their fault, just supply and demand. This therefore, becomes a much more expensive way of staffing rotas compared to ensuring motivated, happy doctors are working in training posts. The cherry on top of course is that Hunt has recognised that this system is expensive and has this year introduced caps on locum fees meaning that these shifts now go unfilled as people won’t work for what he is willing to pay. This further increases the pressure on us.
4. This is just the start:
The attack on doctors is not the only threat this government is imposing on the NHS. They plan to remove bursaries from student nurses. These nurses work on the wards as part of their training, they’re looking after patients and now he wants them to pay for the privilege. This is going to prevent many caring people choosing nursing as a career as they simply won’t be able to afford it. That’s just one example. Everyone in the NHS will come under attack from these cuts and as doctors I think we have a responsibility to every group working in the health service to stand up to the government on this.
For me these are the big reasons why I chose to strike as well as the pay issues I have mentioned above. I love my job and I think I get rewarded with a fair wage. Asking me to take a 20% pay cut to service some lunatic’s poorly thought out policy is not something I will do without a fight.
It’s also worth mentioning that doctors’ strikes have never been shown in any study to affect mortality. Hunt was keen to point out that we were endangering patients yesterday, which of course wasn’t true. The same staffing levels applied during yesterday’s strike as they did for Christmas day or the Royal Wedding – was he worried about these? No.
Apologies for the long message and thank you to everyone for your support. Your doctors have no reason to lie to you, so we won’t – this isn’t about greedy doctors wanting more. We don’t harbour prime ministerial ambitions or have underhand plans to privatise the NHS. This is about the future of the NHS and we will fight for it."
On 18 Jan 2016 at 4:23pm Mean Joe wrote:
Yeah, who needs the NHS anyway. The people who go the the doc's are just lazy people with colds leeching off funding because they want attention.

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There are no "bits" worth paying attention to, TP. Its all regurgitated nonsense that you have on constant loop. more
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