Lewes Forum thread

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On Tue 4 Jun at 4:20pm Basil wrote:
Change UK staggering to oblivion, via the Lib Dems. It would take a heart of stone not to laugh.
On Tue 4 Jun at 5:14pm Green Sleeves wrote:
They didn't really offer anything new, even as a protest vote. Hopefully they will continue to support, vote and stand for liberal policies as independent MPs. Can't see them going back to Tories or Labour, and with the Lib Dems back on the ascendency, they might be absorbed by them. It looked so bad for the lib Dems just a few short weeks ago!
On Tue 4 Jun at 5:26pm Bert wrote:
I don't accept MPs are elected on a party manifesto, then become independants. I imagine their consistencies will call for by-elections. Then we can expect a Brexit MP produced and maybe even elected. Could be interesting. Watch Peterborough on Thursday!
On Tue 4 Jun at 5:47pm Hello wrote:
Liberal Democrats in the ascendancy? Hahahahahahahahahahaha. That's a good one. You do like a good laugh Greenie. Next you'll be using the same logic to tell us the Brexit Party will win the next General Election. Brilliant stuff mate. Be a good chap/girl/etc and answer my query from Sunday - there's money riding on it
On Tue 4 Jun at 6:14pm Sensible wrote:
Mr. Farage's Brexit Party is fully on course to take any future general election by a majority of over 200 seats. This is what is called 'winning'. I do not believe it would be sensible for the Brexit Party in government, or individuals loyal to its leader, to give dissenters anywhere to hide in this time when loyalty and traditional patriotism are required. While the issue of Britain's future relationship with the Common Market and the United States is being worked out, it is sensible to suspend or penalise political parties that oppose the properly elected government. Do you agree?
On Tue 4 Jun at 6:34pm Green Sleeves wrote:
The recent polls show Lib Dems ahead in terms of a next general election. Ahead of the Brexit Party in second. That's Lib Dems who don't even have a long term leader. The Brexit Party is just a pathetic Nigel Farage fanboy club, what a bunch of incel losers. Nationalism has definitely made a comeback though, yay.
On Tue 4 Jun at 6:41pm Hello wrote:
Nice one Greenie I'm almost wetting myself here you're that funny.
Now please settle our bet and help us humble working men - are you modelled on a far left Alf Garnett or the funny little chap with moustache and wellingtons ala Freddie Starr? If it's neither we'll give the cash to our favourite charity.
On Tue 4 Jun at 8:16pm Tom Pain wrote:
Sometimes I wonder if sensible is newms new moniker. There's the same slightly hysterical tone. GS's new word incel is very impressive, used derogatorily I feel sure he'll be using it frequently and it sounds so much more sophisticated than w*anker which is so gammon.
On Wed 5 Jun at 10:56pm Basil wrote:
It's funny Green Sleeves I had to look up incel to see what it means. 'Involuntary celibate'. And you add 'losers'. It's interesting how close your abuse is that to Trump's. I wonder if you are by any chance related. And I love your idea that nationalism has made a come back. The EU has a flag, an anthem, a pretend parliament - we call that Euronationalism.
On Thu 6 Jun at 9:42am Green Sleeves wrote:
You might call it "Euronationalism", I think a lot of people call it "co-operation" and just working closely with our neighbours and closest allies with a lot of perks and autonomy that Brexiters simply fail to see because they believe in a eurosceptic media that promotes backwards nationalism and makes absurd claims about rubbish like pushing the notion it has a "pretend parliament". Having a flag and anthem is just something we use in the Ryder Cup for Europe, and is trivial like it should be as it is with individual countries daft human traditions. Flags and anthems mean little to me, especially our own anthem which is about a Royal Family that I am totally apathetic about, and a "God" I have even less time for - the EU combo is at least totally free from that kind of archaic nonsense.

As for using the word "loser", which Trump does indeed use himself quite regularly. Well, he doesn't deserve a monopoly on all playground insults. I certainly wouldn't be using such terms if I were the most powerful man on the planet though
On Thu 6 Jun at 12:53pm Basil wrote:
Green Sleeves, if the Euronationalist flag and anthem and single currency are so unimportant why are they insisting on them? And why have Macron and Merkel called for the estabishment of a Euronationalist army? A strange internationalism you believe in, with 6% of the world's population forming it's own superstate. And, Yes, let's end the monarchy. At least we can agree on that.
On Thu 6 Jun at 1:31pm Green Sleeves wrote:
Nobody is imposing the flag or anthem on anyone, and the single currency operates in some of the EU member states for the kinds of reasons where cooperation can potentially make sense. Now its not to say that it always works perfectly, by any stretch, but the concept of (for example) creating a single currency to compete with the major currency in the USD has some merits.

A tighter set of defence agreements is also not a terrible idea, and consolidating some of these things could make sense given the rising costs of defence and evolution of the way international conflicts now take place. Having said that, the prospect of their being a single European army (with all our friends....ooooo scary) is a long way from ever even getting off the ground. 2 EU leaders suggesting it does not make it a reality, and probably not in the way you fear. NATO pretty much covers this, although your fear may become a reality should Trump and his hawkish administration get shot of it....but if that were the case, then it clearly would make sense to form some kind of european wide alliance to fill that void.
On Thu 6 Jun at 7:38pm Tom Pain wrote:
I notice that you don't mention PESCO the EU army structure already signed up to. NATO is completely different. It doesn't have a parliament or one of those silly anthems. When the European leaders meet with their pathetic flag and the ode to joy rings out I wasn't aware they were just going to play golf together, although I wish they were. Now,these daft human traditions you despise,what else can we have? Dog traditions? Machine traditions? As I have noted before, you don't need to be racist,you just hate all humans.
On Thu 6 Jun at 10:15pm Tom Pain wrote:
Once more into the breech-- something you said keeps echoing - "with all our friends" (in Europe). What are friends? People you can rely on no matter what? You have to know them well for a long time to trust them and even then they can disappoint you. Can people thousands of miles away you will never meet be friends? Is my enemie's enemy my friend? Is Nigel Farage your enemy and Emmanuel Macron your friend? The history of Europe and the whole world shows the fragility of alliances between countries and individuals, especially those individuals, often psychopathic who are rulers. I think you are being over optimistic.
On Thu 6 Jun at 11:20pm Basil wrote:
Green Sleeves wrote: '...creating a single currency to compete with the major currency in the USD has some merits.'

So the EU isn't to do with 'internatonalism' at all? It's a Euro-bloc intended to look after the interests of Euro-capitalism. Presumably it's also intended to be a bloc competing with China and Russia too? Let's hope Remainers don't keep boasting about their 'internationalism', eh Green Sleeves.
On Sat 8 Jun at 7:49am Nevillman wrote:
Basil. Your argument appears to me to be classic straw manning. There are many reasons why remainers believe staying in the EU is a much better option for the UK. Capitalism in the form of exploitation of workers and consumers will be considerably greater outside of the EU.
On Sat 8 Jun at 9:10am Basil wrote:
Nevillman, can you tell me in what way capitalist exploitation will be 'considerably greater' outside the EU. If you assume the EU protects workers, bear in mind Macron's Thatcherite 'reforms' in France, continuing austerity in the eurozone and the hammering of the Greeks.
On Sat 8 Jun at 11:20am Nevillman wrote:
There are lots of employment protection laws which the EU makes members abide by and which can be repealed when we leave for instance 28 days leave, maternity rights and rights for part time works. The EU got rid of ttip which would have opened up the NHS and all services to American competition with profit as the main motive. We shall be powerless to prevent this in future US trade talks. This is why capitalist exploitation looks like becoming greater Clifford.
Incidentally all the evidence suggests that the majority of people make their mind up on issues on the basis of emotion and then find arguments to support it so I don't expect to convince you. I voted to leave in 1975 having heard Tony Benn argue about the capitalist club. Experience and analysis subsequently persuaded me that he and his argument were wrong. Leaving will be a disaster economically, politically and socially.
On Sat 8 Jun at 10:55pm Tom Pain wrote:
Would you invest anything in a company whose accounts have never been passed by auditors? Well that's the EU. It's a leech fastened on the back of Europe bleeding us white controlled by the privately owned ECB. Just wait for the "bail ins" when they crash the economy again. Boom and bust cycles are controlled by banks granting or witholding credit (which accounts for 97% of the money in the economy.) When you sign a contract for a loan the bank considers it as an asset which it balances as a debit in it's books by giving you the cash or a promise to pay (your account). The money came into existence the moment you promised to give it to them. This is a proven FACT. On the basis of this they can confiscate your house for not giving them back the money they created out of nothing more than your promise to give it to them. Get your head around that and we can go on to double entry book keeping. Alternatively give me the thumbs down but don't blame anyone but yourself for the evils of capitalism.
On Sun 9 Jun at 6:52pm Nevillman wrote:
Tom pain. I don't agree with the first part of your post and you offer no evidence to substantiate it. The second part about the creation of busts I disagree with. You may well have a point about the creation of wealth but I don't see what it has to do with the EU or anything else on this post. I can't agree that I am responsible personally for the evils of capitalism either. Government should see one of its main jobs being to control capitalism. The EU has been better at this than our own government as its competition control has been more effective and covers the whole of the EU. Without it we shall have rampant capitalism and we can then debate who creates a recession. That is why I have given you a thumbs down.
On Sun 9 Jun at 8:08pm Tom Pain wrote:
You can disagree with the first point but that doesn't alter the fact that it's true. The information is freely available online. If you can find a report of the EU accounts passing an audit please tell me and I'll retract my statement gladly and offer an apology.
On Mon 10 Jun at 8:21am Nevillman wrote:
If you Google 'EU audit' you will find the audited accounts for the EU. If you Google 'are the EU accounts audited' you will find a long discussion about it in which the claims of a few brexit supporters are largely rubbished. I can't be bothered to hear your apology or the increasing sounds of regret from leavers as the country falls apart in the coming years as you all realise you have been duped.
On Mon 10 Jun at 10:27pm Tom Pain wrote:
I note that the books have been audited by the European Court of Auditors which is part of the EU and funded by the EU. (tries to stop laughing).
On Tue 11 Jun at 7:58am Nevillman wrote:
Who audits the UK government accounts? UK civil servants. The point is that like the EU accounts they are open to scrutiny by anyone who wants to check them. What are you actually suggesting Tom pain? Maybe there is a secret fund set up to send migrants to the UK. Of the leave arguments I've heard, this is right up there with anything I've seen on the side of a bus.
The EU accounts most definitely pass an audit. Apology expected.

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