On 19 Mar 2016 at 6:34pm BULLDOG wrote:
It has to be said that the remain is getting trounced at the moment by the leave Campaign. I know the polls suggest it's neck and neck but unless remain up there game, leave are going to start to pull away. Today's Boeing announcement, another big positive for leave.
On 19 Mar 2016 at 7:12pm Trooper wrote:
On 19 Mar 2016 at 8:00pm Ryder wrote:
It's no surprise that the remainers are left cold about their 'cause' this was always a political project about building an undemocratic federal superstate and it has always sought to operate in secret, buried behind impenetrable and bewildering bureaucracy while it obscures it's true aim of slowly gathering more and more power from increasingly powerless countries without their consent.
The referendum has finally forced this elitist organisation out into the open where none of the europhiles have ever wanted it to be and it is finally being scrutinised and held to account properly.
I am always amazed someone dislikes the UK enough to actually walk to a polling station and vote for it's complete submission to Brussels let alone campaign for it.
On 20 Mar 2016 at 11:16am townie wrote:
I haven't got a clue how im going to vote. Could someone who doesn't subscribe to any political party tell me the pros and cons. Ta muchly
On 20 Mar 2016 at 11:28am Metatron wrote:
Townie to sum it up do you want to decide the laws of this country here or in Brussels.
On 20 Mar 2016 at 12:15pm Historian wrote:
Don't forget the whole of Europe is watching us. The individual populations of all those countries have never had the real choice of membership, whilst some have benefited greatly, whereas others have paid dearly. We have a real opportunity to quash the United States Of Europe !! PLEASE do it.
There was life before the EU and will be again.
On 20 Mar 2016 at 2:34pm Paul Newman wrote:
England as an uninterrupted Unitary state did not exist before it as conquered by the civilised Norse men of Normandy, a people who only a 2oo year earlier had arrived from Scandinavia . At the time the Saxon ruling class spoke a Germanic dialect mutually comprehensible with the Danes and other Germanic tribes
This ethnic group revolted in the North and and William responded by burning whole villages Food stores and livestock so anyone surviving the initial massacre would succumb to starvation over the winter.( The survivors were reduced to cannibalism)
This changing of the ruling warrior class did not involve the majority of the population who remained of original British stock albeit Saxonised for reasons we do not know, the armies involved were very small .
So the birth of England was one of competing foreign cultures of various kinds who churned in the power vacuum left by the fall of Rome before coalescing . This was late in our case and for a long period England was really part of a channel Empire with Old French the dominant language and English a despised common tongue
Chaucer ( born 1343 ) is supposed to mark the resumption of purely English history but as we see this England had never existed and if you compare middle English with old English you casee that England was a new amalgam of all these influences . Throughout this time connections with Europe were strong . Europe today still occupies a space known as Christendom . Latin, the Church and the cosmopolitan ruling classes thought in European terms . Chaucer, a civil servant ,travelled in France, Spain, and Flanders and on at least one pilgrimage .
Canterbury Tales itself is in English but a product of French courtly literature although there is much that is typically English in retrospect .
One could go on but Englandís history is not one of isolationism it is quite the reverse its has always had a complex political and cultural relationship with its neighbours. The current fad for a re- heated Victorian romantic Nationalism cannot lay claim to especially deep roots . To me it seems as silly and preposterous as it would have done to most Englishmen at most times.
On 20 Mar 2016 at 3:18pm Enry the eightf wrote:
History lesson over Paul and what was your point?
On 20 Mar 2016 at 3:58pm supporter wrote:
usual pn drivel
On 20 Mar 2016 at 5:41pm Anne of cleves wrote:
When are you going to fix my house up, Harry?
On 20 Mar 2016 at 6:43pm Enry the eightf wrote:
Sorry Luv its listed I can't touch it. My mate Frank might have a butcher's.
On 21 Mar 2016 at 12:14am wrote:
I think the point is, itís a lecture to woo Out-going nationalists, a lecture made up of cherry picked factoids that support the absurd notion that its actually very British to be a foreigner.
A new depth of spin from the motormouth on behalf of the party not exactly world famous for its tolerance of and altruism towards foreign nations and nationals.
On 21 Mar 2016 at 5:35am pn wrote:
Just making the point that England and specifically English was formed by European incursions from the start and there is nothing new about close ties with Europe.
On 21 Mar 2016 at 7:59am confused wrote:
Well Townie, I'm much in the same boat. Basically I don't think it's a matter for a referendum. Its a complex issue that if we had proper government, would be decided by balanced evidence and research. Instead we are just being besieged by propaganda from both sides all of which insults our intelligence No wonder we're confused; it seems like a staged set piece.
This is totally the wrong time to be raising the issue anyway. Whatever you think about the refugee crisis it's got to be solved; the last thing the grey suits need at the moment is another crisis over Brexit.
I am concerned about the increasingly undemocratic nature of the grey suits' Europe. I am concerned about the way they have traduced the rights of national sovereign states and imposed cruel 'austerity'. Many of those countries would have failed properly employed joining tests.
All I hear is economic sound bites being used as strident jousting evidence from both the ins and the outs. There are other considerations like our values, our cultural life, our dignity. it's not all reductionist economics.
i worry about the USA's eager urging for us to remain in the EU. Its intervention has amounted to bold meddling in our national affairs. But many in Europe would attest that we gave up our sovereignty to the USA a long time ago.
I'm not sure I want my human rights legislation left in the hands of a national government though. Osborne's high handed false 'austerity' shown in the budget is enough to convince me of that. At any point in history we can be subjected to cynical 'ideological' erosion of our freedoms, and our rights to a share of our country's wealth.
I delight in feeling that I'm part of the rich culture of Europe and am am only too aware of the dangers of isolationist policies....
So confused all round, especially since it's also one of those issues that puts the extreme right and left on the same ticket - even if for for differing motives.
On 21 Mar 2016 at 8:12am pn wrote:
If you are undecided one way or another "Confused" can I suggest that there is only one sensible thing to do. Stick with what you know,. Peronally i don`t find the fact that the extreme left and right agree all that surprising
On 21 Mar 2016 at 9:07am confused wrote:
I must say I find your answer somewhat strange PN. Here I am trying to worm my way out of a morass of disinformation in order to bring some measure to personal democratic decision making and all you can say is 'stick with what you know!' It's hardly grown up advice and it's somewhat patronising - it's all right dear, have a cup of tea, keep your head down and accept what is. In fact what you are offering is that old slogan -'keep calm and carry on.' Well I won't.
I wonder, do you find it difficult to interact when normative debate is engaged and asked for? Do you prefer the provision of a platform for the kind of set piece politicking that doesn't engage or really link in to the ongoing discussion of others. It feels that you don't actually 'own' the material you post . I think it does harm because it alienates people and locks them out from proper discussion.
On 21 Mar 2016 at 5:21pm Belladonna wrote:
What happens to farm subsidies if we leave the EU ? I presume they are lost . This has massive implications for our food production. I'd also suspect a few of the hedge funds who have bought massive estates suddenly disposing of them without the Brusseks subsidy on 1000s of acres. How will it affect UK agriculture - in particular the struggling smaller farmers constrained by supermarket pricing ? A rise in food prices ?
On 21 Mar 2016 at 5:43pm War effort wrote:
The Keep Calm slogan in it's original setting, was well thought advice to our country facing the real possibility of Nazi invasion. PN's advice is more like the modern saying " it is what it is " I would suggest he is what he is.
On 21 Mar 2016 at 6:15pm Ryder wrote:
Just to continue paying farmers the same subsidy as they are getting now would cost the British taxpayer half as much, because, at present, we pay £6 billion a year into the CAP, but our farmers get only £3 billion back. British farmers are effectively subsidising their competitors, including the french who receive three times as much.
We can spend more on farmers outside the EU and still save money.
On 21 Mar 2016 at 8:17pm Metatron wrote:
Belladona perhaps without paying subsidies to Farmers in the EU, it would enable African Farmers to be able to make a proper living. Subsidising Farmers not to grow food and set aside land can only be immoral. Like throwing dead fish back into the sea when there undersized.
On 22 Mar 2016 at 8:52pm smed wrote:
I want to know what Labour really think about the EU. Specifically he EU negotiations of TTIP which it seems we are not allowed to know about because of EU secrecy. Do labour think that the EU will always protect the downtrodden?
On 23 Mar 2016 at 1:01am Insighted wrote:
Why we need to stay in the EU
The European Union was originally set up for two reasons: the collective security of Europe and the enhancement of trade. Both these reasons are still absolutely valid and have been working brilliantly for many years.
Collective security may be even more important now than when it was originally set up. Putin now threatens us from the East and Trump potentially threatens us from the West. Did you know that Putin wants his/Russiaís land back? What stops him? NATO. He is trying to break NATO up. I know that NATO is not part of the EU, but If he succeeds and we are not part of the European Community we will be on our own. What happens If Trump becomes US president? No one knows. Do you really want to be on your own in that situation?
Did you know that the European Community is the biggest trading block in the world. Forget all the arguments about Britain being able to form trading alliances with Europe after BREXIT (a word I abhor) and think about all the gains all Europeans together get from being part of the biggest trading block in the world. Why donít politicians remind us of this fact? We can call the shots as part of the European Community, we are big and powerful. We can challenge China, Brazil and India, Russia and the US, but what can we do as little Britain on our own? Why donít the politicians remind us of that?
People talk about the impact on jobs and immigrants and various other issues, but most of these wonít change whether we are in or out. These are global issues and not something caused by membership of the European community.
Why we have been forced to have this stupid referendum on a subject most people have no knowledge of is beyond me. People may vote out simply because it has a direct effect on them, whether or not that is actually true or not. How can they know? At least I understand the European Union and the European Commission and give advice to it so I understand the structure, but for most people itís a mystery and the only way they can judge it is by evaluating the immediate effects on their own livelihoods. However, even that is not obvious. The benefit of being in may be something you canít simply add up. The advantages of being in the biggest trading block in the world are difficult to quantify, but are surely positive.
For example, if you are an exporter, you might not even be in business without the Union. How would you negotiate trade with China without the backing of the Union for example? That may incur a cost, but might not even be possible without being part of the Union. The point is that the economic value of being part of it is very difficult to quantify and we will hear positives and negatives, but being part of the biggest trading block in the world is incredibly valuable and if you add that to the collective security it brings why would anyone even think of leaving.
In fact I think we should be making every effort to ensure that the Union continues and thrives because it is our own interest and also the interest of all the people living within the community who are our neighbours and friends and human beings like us. We need to work together in what is becoming a very difficult world with a very uncertain future.