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It is about democracy

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On 20 Jun 2016 at 10:27am democrat wrote:
The late, great friend of the workers Tony Benn explaining why we must leave to restore democracy.
The direction of this country should be in the hands of the electorate not a self-serving elite imposing laws and enshrining privatisation and austerity without accountability.
Britain will be stronger in Europe and more importantly the world as a free, open and tolerant nation when we leave.
The narrow minded option is to destroy our rights and submerge this country into a union that is wreaking havoc on Europe in their dangerous attempt to force every country into a single unity.
It is the system that is wrong.
If we remain we will be forced into the Euro, forced into full economic union, forced into an EU army, forced to pay ever more through new EU taxes and budget contributions, forced to accept the jurisdiction of an EU court and forced to have our entire domestic policy dictated by people who we cannot elect, do not act in our interests and cannot remove.
Don't be bullied and threatened by the establishment into giving away your vote that people fought courageously for throughout our proud history.
'The man who is tenacious of purpose in a rightful cause is not shaken from his firm resolve by the frenzy of his fellow citizens clamoring for what is wrong, or by the tyrant's threatening countenance.'
Who are you going to trust Tony Benn or Tony Blair and Goldman Sachs?

Watch the video »
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On 20 Jun 2016 at 11:01am Jerry wrote:
What tripe.Nobody is going to force us into the Euro or into a European Army or into anything else. Tony Benn opposed membership in 1975 but I wonder what he would think of the current referendum - perhaps he'd stand side by side with Nigel Farage and that disgusting migration poster. Or put his arms around Boris Johnson - that ultimate political adventurer.
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On 20 Jun 2016 at 11:09am democrat wrote:
Jerry he campaigned against the EU up until his dying days was a brilliant intellect and principled parliamentarian for over 40 years. That you dismiss his wise words as 'tripe' shows the depth of your ignorance.
You clearly need to learn how to think properly. One can be against the EU and not agree with Mr Farage - not terribly difficult logic is it. Tony Benn comes from the proud democratic socialist wing of the Labour party that was against the EU with other towering figures compared to the Blairites.
I assume you agree with Osbourne, Nicola Sturgeon, Goldman Sachs, Jean Claude Juncker Blair, Cameron and Bob Geldof on everything do you?
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On 20 Jun 2016 at 11:12am Zebedee wrote:
Tony Benn said this a long time ago, before we recognised global climate change and man's devastating effect on the environment, before mass migration cased by war (and to come, lack of water) and importantly, the revolution in global interconnectedness brought about by the internet. And before the government became subservient to the media. There is no guarantee he'd say the same now.

As for democracy. You can't be a citizen of the UK and moan about democracy in the EU. In the EU the final say on whether any policy is implemented is with our proportionally elected representatives. In the UK policy passed by our elected representatives can be blocked by the house of Lords, an unelected chamber stuffed full hereditary members of the establishment, party lackeys and funders, and the odd sports person! In addition the UK's first past the post system gives us a party able to form a majority government with only 24% of the votes. Add in the three line whip which blackmails MPs to voting against their conscience and the wishes of their constituency, a screaming mass media owned by a very few powerful people and able to bend the government to its whim, the lobby system and ingrained public school network of the establishment, and the privileged and I'm afraid there ain't no democracy here worth talking of.

And to correct an out-and-out falsehood in your writing. The UK will not sign up to the single currency. It has opted out and the EU is agreed. It is not on the table, ever (unless we really wanted it... which seems highly unlikely).

And more, the EU does not dictate our entire domestic policy and never will. And even a small percentage of our laws (less than 15% are influenced at all, even a very little, by EU law).

I'm afraid it is clear it is you who are fear mongering. It is rich to accuse others of doing so.

The upshot is that if we don't like some aspects of the EU we, as its second or third most powerful member ought to get in there and do something about it. Past is the time where we stand on the sidelines and only turn up to 1 out of 42 meetings (Mr Farage, failing our fishing industry again).
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On 20 Jun 2016 at 11:12am george wrote:
These are the kind of people the vote leave will be allowing to have power -
“The Lib-Lab-Cons have conspired with a foreign power, the EU, and are all thereby guilty of treason. They have sold Britain, which is the fifth largest economy, illegally into increasing slavery inside the EU dictatorship. Those responsible should be hung by the neck until dead.” Tony Venables.
This what you are voting for if you vote to leave. The word fascist is thrown around far too much nowadays but things are really starting to slide downhill when this is the kind of political discourse that is being reported in the daily newspapers.
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On 20 Jun 2016 at 11:14am democrat wrote:
The figure of EU law is actually 59% as shown in the recent documentary by Paxman backed up by the house of commons library.
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On 20 Jun 2016 at 11:29am Jerry wrote:
democrat, I wasn't dismissing Tony Benn's 'wise words' as tripe, but your assertion that we will be forced into the Euro and a European army. I'd rather Tony Benn to Tony Blair any day, of course,and I'm quite sure he never changed his mind about anything (the down side of being 'principled'), but am pretty sure he'd struggle to endorse this Leave campaign with its ragbag of political opportunists and bigots riding on the coattails of genuine about the scale of immigration and the pace of modernity. As Zebedee explains above, there ain't nothing democratic about Westminster
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On 20 Jun 2016 at 11:42am democrat wrote:
Im voting leave and I don't endorse the behaviour of either of the 'official' campaigns - can you understand?
Tony Benn would of campaigned alongside the trade unionists against EU in all probably or with the RMT.
As far as the army is concerned Jean claude Juncker and Angela Merkel along with other leaders have said they want it to happen, it is also written into the Maastricht treaty and Lisbon treaty.
"Such an army would help us to build a common foreign and national security policy, and to collectively take on Europe's responsibilities in the world,” Jean-Claude Junker
You may agree with an EU army or not I am simply pointing out that the decision will be taken for us by the commission and the people of Britain will not have a say. I can fully assure you that the end goal is the creation of a new country, with all the trappings of the nation-state.
Even if we manage to stay outside the Euro - we will be forced to accept laws made in favour of that currency to the detriment of our own as they push on with full federalisation which is not a good position to be in.
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On 20 Jun 2016 at 12:34pm Zebedee wrote:
'Democrat'. You are including regulations (for trade etc). I don't think you can include these under 'law'.

"An estimated 13% of Acts and Statutory Instruments have an EU influence, whereas that rises to 62% when EU regulations are included in addition to Acts and Statutory Instruments."
See fullfact.org for verification.

Check it out here »
 
 
On 20 Jun 2016 at 12:49pm Chris wrote:
Economically, I'm in. Migration wise, I'm out!
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On 20 Jun 2016 at 12:55pm Zebedee wrote:
Look 'democrat'. As long as we are in we have a veto. There will be no army if we (or any other member states) do not want it, whatever Angela Merkel or Junker says.

And we will stay out of the Euro. It is not open to question and there is little point in repeatedly raising it. And whatever happens to the Euro in the future is just as likely to affect us positively as it is negatively.... unless you have evidence otherwise.
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On 20 Jun 2016 at 5:07pm Observer wrote:
"If we remain we will be forced into the Euro, forced into full economic union, forced into an EU army, forced to pay ever more through new EU taxes and budget contributions, forced to accept the jurisdiction of an EU court and forced to have our entire domestic policy dictated by people who we cannot elect, do not act in our interests and cannot remove."
That's just rubbish.
We have permanent opt-outs from the Euro and Schengen. We cannot be 'forced' under monetary union.
Our contributions per head are lower than France and Germany.
Only 15-20% of laws come from Europe, the percentage has fallen over the past few years, and most of them we agreed to - in many cases starting them.

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On 20 Jun 2016 at 7:36pm Labour Party member wrote:
Jerry, What's wrong with that poster? Immigration IS a serious problem, and Cameron does not seem to have the balls to slow it. Is it because the poster shows people of other colours or cultures? For decades now we have had posters and government leaflets that include token non-white faces to imply that we are a "multi-cultural" society. Would you react the same if a similar picture were shown on a Labour election broadcast?
I'm with Jeremy. He won't officially say so- but he wants out.
This referendum is a PERSONAL vote. And of course a secret one.
I'm voting to LEAVE.
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On 21 Jun 2016 at 9:02am Zebedee wrote:
'Labour party member'

Did you listen to Jeremy's speech yesterday. Didn't sound like a man who wanted out, did it?

I presume you are from Lewes. So what is your experience of the problems of immigration? Much of a problem where you live? On the other hand have you been to a major hospital recently? If so, did you notice how many foreigners there were working as porters, general staff, nurses and doctors? If you throw these people out what do you think will happen to the NHS? And who will treat all those 1 million older people who'll be forced to come back from their retirement in sunnier parts of Europe?


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Well it looks as if I can jet off soon , none of the loud mouths with nothing behind them have anything to say, all piss and wind... more
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