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Hard Brexit

On 7 Oct 2016 at 9:36pm pn wrote:
I had decided that Lewes Forum was not a suitable place for politics but for anyone who is following the slow motion Brexit car crash it is getting worse. As we know the economy looks healthy. That is caused by abandoning interest rate normalisation not to say abandoning balancing the UKs swelling debts . Governments can always create demand , they cannot affect the real economy .
With the pound plummeting against all major currencies in view of the buoyant consumption the culprit for the run on the Uk is not hard to locate. When you cut yourself off from your largest market and imperil everything productive in your economy you will get that kind of thing and there an important lesson here.
The markets are no all-knowing it is only as the information emerges that the UK will get into deeper and deeper trouble, we are still a long way from the bottom and already the country is getting dangerously close to catastrophe . Nissan have flagged that they are considering leaving and so have all the major US Banks, that is why Hammonds first act in our glorious sovereign state was to beg New York Banks not to dump the pound and the country. So we will be treated by the rest of the world , that what happens to small weak countries.
The EU `s line is hardening into a readiness for trade war and after the Daily Mays truly unpleasant borderline racist speech we know we are getting the hardest if hard Brexits; a complete exclusion from preferential European Trade.
48% of us did not want to leave at all and the rest were promised , not the terrifying cost that is the reality but an intelligence insulting Brexy Bonus. This is not democracy it is a opportunist coup by the far right of the Conservative Party now indistinguishable form UKIP and , frankly , no better than a posh BNP, parts of it never were .
Never have I felt such despair.Remain Conservatives are trimming to the prevailing Party wind with shameless cowardice whilst Labour has betrayed its founding purpose to become an absurd protest movement.
If anyone can think of any reason to be cheerful do tell , and I am not cheered but the thought of using EU citizens of as pawns , ethnic cleansing ,or childish nonsense e about being open to the globe .

On 7 Oct 2016 at 10:05pm New Revolution wrote:
My God people like you harp on about democracy re the 48%
Well that is democracy old boy.
The Remain campaign was even more dreadful than the Leave so blame them.
On 7 Oct 2016 at 10:24pm Dubious wrote:
Hahaha, is that blame remainers for the Brexit mess? I've heard it all now!
On 7 Oct 2016 at 11:41pm Learn to Read wrote:
It clearly states the Remain campaign
Been on the weed have we?
On 8 Oct 2016 at 7:31am Ghost of Ted wrote:
I say, I'm mourning on my cloud up here. All my work to get us in and it only lasted a few years, what is more I have le General taking the piss for all eternity.
On 8 Oct 2016 at 7:33am Brian Jones wrote:
Hey You, get offa my cloud.
On 8 Oct 2016 at 9:08am David Camoron wrote:
If you want to blame anyone blame Mr Camoron, he took us into it to solve an internal party squabble with no plans of how to keep us in the EU. But seriously PeNis get back under your newspaper and eat hedgehogs, no one cares.
On 8 Oct 2016 at 9:48am I Care wrote:
Surely the blame will be with people who voted out?..
On 8 Oct 2016 at 10:00am PN wrote:
If no-one vcares then you might wonmder why we ever asked the dumbocracy to decide . I do blame David Cameron but if he lkeft the door open he did not take the family silver . The thieves are the culprits , the Brexity liars above all
On 8 Oct 2016 at 10:04am David Camoron wrote:
Surely the blame is squarely at the feet of the moron that gave the average British person a vote on our future to quell the discontent of 66 backbencher? The average British person has been screwed by the government for longer than I've been alive, so of course most people will take the opportunity to stick two fingers up to them. Combine that with the vote in campaign tactics of doom and gloom and osbournes emergency EU budget BS (something the majority of people perceived as a bullying tactics) and you have the reason the vote went in favour of out. Like I said he took us into the referendum with no
plan on how he would keep us in the EU.
On 8 Oct 2016 at 10:28am Fancy a Cuppa? wrote:
Tea means Tea.

Q: "Do you want a cup of tea?" A: "Yes please.

Q: "Actually I've only got camomile tea. Are you sure?"
A: "Oh, no thank you then. I don't like that funny tea."

What is wrong with asking people to confirm a choice when they realise that what they were offered is not exactly what they thought they were getting?


Hard Brexit will be a disaster. It's not what people thought they were voting forQ
On 8 Oct 2016 at 12:25pm Don Quixhardon wrote:
We laugh @ you Brits too you know.
On 8 Oct 2016 at 3:22pm Oak wrote:
Anyone who seriously thinks the EU is an acceptable way to govern needs their head looking at.
It's as if remainers have never heard of the Magna Carta or the fact we fought a civil war to deny kings the type of power weilded by Juncker et al.
That it is causing odious Newman intense vexation is merely the icing on the cake, and a surer way of knowing the right decision was made I do not know.
On 8 Oct 2016 at 4:25pm PN wrote:
Oak can you tell me which of the various ways in which Europen has previously been governed your prefer..... I hope you will get an opportunity to explain to some of the people youi kake unemployed how a consitutionla amendment was worth it .
Incidentally I notice that the proper respect for Parliament is oddly absent form the process of hard Brexit.
On 8 Oct 2016 at 4:36pm David Cameron wrote:
You're missing the point PN, parliament has nothing to do with a referendum, it is down to the people to decide. Since we had a referendum why would the decision then be subject to parliamentary approval, like all politicians you must think your better place to decide our future than we are - you talk as if parliament is somehow superior to the will of the people.
On 8 Oct 2016 at 6:41pm Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
Many academics and constitutional lawyers believe that the decision needs parliamentary approval because the legislation that enabled the referendum failed to specify that the outcome would be binding. (There is precedent for that in the Act that enabled the AV referendum).
And that's without the difficulties posed by potential contradictions between the referendum outcome and the Good Friday Agreement and Act of Union.
On 8 Oct 2016 at 6:56pm David Camoron wrote:
ACT I agree if you're talking about actual legalities, I am talking at a philosophical level. You people have spoken, why does that need parliamentary approval? If it's for legal issues it should be a rubber stamp formality, the suggestion that a referendum can be overwritten by parliament has implications that should not be explored. I think 52% of the population would quite rightly deem parliament null and void in that scenario, maybe even the end of democracy as we know it. "Proper respect for parliament" seriously PN get your head out of your backside, parliament will get respect when they start making decisions for the good of the people not their own selfish needs (back to my original point of why we even had a vote).
On 8 Oct 2016 at 9:31pm Fancy a Cupp wrote:
DC: "You're missing the point PN, parliament has nothing to do with a referendum, it is down to the people to decide."
Because under the British constitution [tangential note: when people refer to the unwritten nature of this, what they mean is that there is no single document, as in other nations, which lays out the constitution, not that it doesn't exist, or isn't written down somewhere] - referendums and their results do not have any power over Parliament. Parliament is sovereign. In face the legislation for the EU referendum specifically states that it is purely advisory. It doesn't even say that 50% of the vote has any meaning that is purely how people have decided to interpret the result. It is the equivalent of the ask the audience option on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? It in no way compels Parliament to act on the result.

It is abundantly clear to anyone who has been paying attention that Brexit is a circle that cannot be squared without catastrophic consequences. What we will get if we pursue it is not what anyone actually wants. You should not be thinking in terms of winners and losers. Everyone is a loser with Brexit. The Brexiteers in Government have not got the faintest idea how to pursue with Brexit they are making it up as the go along and the not only want to have the cake and eat it, they also want a refund for its purchase!

In the lala fantasy land of the Department for Exiting the European Union there's some notion that the UK is going to up at the negotiating table and get some kind of deal out of it. The reality is that the UK hasn't got anything to bargain with. We want to be out of the club not paying the dues, but still reaping the benefits of club membership. It ain't gonna happen.

It doesn't matter how much you may think the EU is dysfunctional because a UK outside of the Union will be non-functional.

What gets me is this - If the EU is so bloody awful why aren't the Germans also clamouring to get out of it? Germany fully embraced the concept of the EU and its institutions and it has been the most successful nation within the EU since it's inception. Why can't we be like Germany? Why is it that instead of being like Germany we ended up constantly moaning about it and sending UKIP buffoons and shysters to represent us who never turned up for any of the committee work for which they are paid, and constantly undermined the UK's position within it? You moan about Junker, the President of the EU Commission. This role is appointed by Government heads in the Council of Europe. Now if the UK had embraced the EU more than maybe the current President would be from the UK instead guiding the EU institutions in a direction more to you liking.
On 8 Oct 2016 at 11:26pm Jeff wrote:
Fancy a Cuppa hit the nail on the head

If what brexiters and remainders voted for were lies we need another referendum based on truths

(And the liars should be tried for their deceits)
On 9 Oct 2016 at 5:38am Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
If politicians were tried for lying, we'd soon run out of judges.
The referendum was flawed because it was just a yes or no question. People voting had no idea on what terms the UK would be leaving, if it opted to leave, so were unable to make an informed choice. And that's without looking at the constitutional issues.
It was like asking "Do you want to jump off this ledge?" without anyone knowing how high it was and whether they'd be landing on rocks, water or a giant safety cushion.
In their arrogance, Cameron et al never considered that the leavers would win, which just shows how out of touch they are. And all this, just to try and shut down dissent in the Conservative party.
On 9 Oct 2016 at 7:22am We could've been like wrote:
Germany but that silly boy Churchill put a stop to it. Perhaps we should have had a referendum after" Peace in our time".
On 9 Oct 2016 at 8:29am Fancy a Cuppa? wrote:
Funny you bring up Churchill, because the whole idea of the EU was Churchills in he first place. He foresaw that unless Europe united in economic and political terms it was likely to experience the resurgence of nationalism and yet another catastrophic war, and so in 1946 he proposed the creation of the United Stars of Europe.
All of the countries in Europe including this one have black marks in their history. But postwar Germany had been remarkable success inside the EU, and I ask again if the EU is so bloody awful why aren't Germany clamouring to be free of it?
On 9 Oct 2016 at 8:59am Historian wrote:
@Fancy a cuppa. History may well prove that Germany will clamour to leave. Next year will bring forth a froth of protest at the EU steam rolling over Europe. The idea of a perfect Europe trading with each other is one thing, but the reality has developed into a completely different scenario. Trading should bring prosperity, but has it ? Honestly ? No Europes members are broke financially, where has this prosperity dissappeard to ? Wasted in countries needing infracturucture when they needed employment and factories to help them build their own financial stability instead to emigrating to high wage, high cost countries. Who can blame them given a 'free pass' to travel. How many Brits would be off in a heart beat to Australia if they offered the same.
Unfortunately, we live in a me me me society and with the worlds population as it is and rising, someone has just got to say NO.
On 9 Oct 2016 at 9:43am David Camoron wrote:
@fancy a cuppa again you're talking legalities, I do not dispute there might be more boxes to tick in that regards. I am talking about parliament over turning a referendum, that has implications that should not be explored. What is the point of a referendum if the result can be overturned? 52% of the UK will quite rightly wonder what the point of parliament is in that scenario, FYI I voted to stay in but believe the result stand regardless. If it doesn't what was the point of it, and as I said in my original post blame David Cameron for holding a referendum when he had no plan for what argument he was putting forward to keep us in.
On 9 Oct 2016 at 12:27pm Oak wrote:
First of all people knew exactly what they were voting for, how dare some people on here try and argue that people are too thick to make such a decision - funnily enough they are same people who like to see power weilded by unelected and unaccountable governing systems that ignore the electorate such as the EU.
The vote to leave the European Union was the largest democratic mandate this country has ever seen. This in spite of the bullying, lies and goldman sachs funded remain campaign.
DC is quite right in pointing out that those who are trying to subvert the will of the people risk destroying our entire democratic system - dangerous and incredibly stupid.
If these people are so concerned with legitimacy why aren't they discussing the fact Mr Heath took us in to the common market without any prior approval from the people, nor were any of the subsequent treaties put to a vote.
The people have spoken and they have made the right decision.
On 9 Oct 2016 at 4:38pm Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
How can people have known what they were voting for when they voted to leave? They still don't know what form Brexit will take.
Until a couple of weeks ago, a "soft" Brexit was still an option. And becoming a member of the customs union hasn't been discounted. We could have a tariff agreement with the EU or revert to WTO rules.
Even leading pro-Brexit MPs didn't know. That eejit Liam Fox thought it would be possible for the UK to negotiate separately with each EU country, until some civil servant put him straight.
Brexit is not just an in/out choice. It's far more complex and subtle than that. Brexit can take many forms.
On 9 Oct 2016 at 5:30pm Tom Pain wrote:
I think oak is saying that the EU Commission is unelected and unaccountable,he's right. That's all that matters. Do you want to live in a tyranny ? The Dunkirk spirit must be truly dead. If we had a British Government,not this bunch of Quislings to internationalism they would leave the EU on British terms. It wasn't Churchill who dreamed up the EU ,it was Chatham House. They also created the UN did you vote for them recently? Yeah I thought so. Unelected,unaccountable the usual international stuff.Who finances them, who finances everyone? Who paid off Churchill's debts,who was he beholden to?
On 9 Oct 2016 at 5:59pm Quisling wrote:
I'm off to play Quidditch.
On 9 Oct 2016 at 8:38pm Fairmeadow wrote:
Lots of panic here from the Europhile lobby.
No one sensible, probably no one at all, thinks we should join the Euro. That creates a currency opportunity/ risk that is far larger than any likely tariff in trade with the EU even if we default to WTO ruled. Which we may, or may not, no one knows yet. Nissan/Renault etc are perfectly well aware of this. They stand to gain far more if the falls than they risk losing from tariffs, so why should they consider moving?
Of course, if the falls, BMWs and VWs, Fiat and Citroens, Skodas and Mercedes, will get more expensive in the UK. British-built Toyotas, Jaguars, Nissans and Hondas will get cheaper in Europe and relatively cheaper in the UK. French Brie will get dearer, Somerset Brie relatively cheaper. It tastes better too, so everyone wins. Exporting gets easier, including to the EU. No wonder Hollande is going spare. Just keep calm and carry on. It will all be fine.
We already have one big win. For decades British kids have found it impossible to get into medical school, as the BMA and similar vested interests restrict places, and the NHS, like other bad employers, has preferred to import ready-trained doctors from abroad rather than invest in training our own. Now even the appalling Jeremy Hunt realises he needs to invest in offering training opportunities to our own kids. Private sector employers will have to follow the same route, and invest in training the staff they need. Win-win. No longer will they be able to parasitise the education budgets of other, mostly poorer, countries. Most voters were smart enough to realise this.
On 9 Oct 2016 at 9:07pm Oh well wrote:
iz you are,or Iz you not my baby ..yaa.
On 10 Oct 2016 at 8:17pm Louis Jordan wrote:
"Is you is or is you ain't my baby."......an' you is another illiteratus..yaa.
On 10 Oct 2016 at 11:49pm A Person wrote:
The Times is reporting a leaked government document predicting a cost of a hard Brexit to the exchequer of 66 BILLION a year. Or is that just those boring old experts coming up with inconvenient statistics again?
On 15 Oct 2016 at 9:51pm Oh well wrote:
it's the spike Milligan version..and that may be wrong as well,so long ago.,

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