On Wed 2 Sep at 4:30pm Tom Pain wrote:
A report from the American Centre for Disease Control of covid deaths August 26th is very similar the the English one. It shows that of the 165'000 deaths fewer than 10,000 died of covid itself. The rest had an average of 2.6 SERIOUS additional diseases. That is serious diseases, not being slightly overweight or ingrown toenails.The statistics do not include deaths resulting from the lockdown ie from cancer, heart disease and other such serious conditions which could not be operated on due to hospitals being reserved for covid patients. These tragedies alone would contribute massively to the overall death rate, significantly reducing the impact of civic on those numbers. The covid details can be verified at the CDC website~ cdc.gov! nchs! vssr_weekly!index.htm#Comorbidities replace! with forward slash.
On Wed 2 Sep at 6:50pm Dreamer wrote:
Good start TP: you actually bothered pulling up relevant data. Now let's work on reading what the data says, and what it doesn't (can't) say:
The legend to table 3 says that just 6% of deaths list Covid as sole cause of death. The other 94% list additional causes of death. Those causes include "diabetes" (25k - a classic comorbidity in the sense that it makes a person more susceptible to dying of Covid), respiratory failure (54k, no doubt nearly all caused by Covid), cardiac arrest (20k, kind of what happens when the heart stops beating), renal failure (13k, a known symptom of Covid), ischemic heart disease (18k, some of those will have had that as preexisting condition, but it is also a well known symptom of Covid), etc.
The point is that a comorbidity isn't the same thing as a preexisting condition. It also covers conditions caused by Covid in otherwise healthy individuals. Yes, a disease that destroys organs will kill people and they will die of that organ not working anymore.
The upshot is: while 6% of US deaths has covid listed as only cause of deaths, that doesn't mean that the other 94% were suffering from other things prior to becoming infected with Covid. The data makes no statement on that at all.
On Wed 2 Sep at 7:26pm Ferret wrote:
It's like saying that someone who is shot dies of shock, blood loss, organ failure, or total collapse of the nervous system. Yes they did, but it was the bullet that killed them.
On Wed 2 Sep at 8:26pm Mark wrote:
TP has told us that he's a fairly elderly man. I admire his spirit for caustic argument and his lust for intellectual masturbation. Tomorrow he will prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that Gorgonzolla isn't a type of cheese and that ham is not a thing that exists.
On Wed 2 Sep at 9:55pm Local99 wrote:
On Wed 2 Sep at 11:22pm Tom Pain wrote:
No ferret, it's like saying that the rabbit,which may have had a cold but was caught and killed by the ferret died of the virus. I truly can't understand why you go to such extraordinary lengths to twist the facts. You belittle,insult and denigrate anyone who suggests anything that contradicts the government's narrative. Why? Oh yes by the way, was Paine an atheist? Have you seen the Corona Virus Bill, passed without Parliament, all it's tyrannical rules? What would your hero have said about that? Oh yes sir, give me my gag sir, I'll do whatever you say sir, rights? no I don't want any, just keep me safe sir?
On Wed 2 Sep at 11:40pm Tom Pain wrote:
No dreamer, these were pre existing conditions and an average of two and a half per case that probably a common cold would have tipped over the edge. You can twist and turn and obfuscate all you want but why are You so utterly determined to believe what your dear government tells you? What the WHO tells you,though it keeps changing? Pre existing Pre got it, now I can echo your patronising tone,do you understand the meaning of pre perhaps it's difficult but it means before, got that?
On Wed 2 Sep at 11:58pm Tom Pain wrote:
Mark, it's not masturbation, it's intercourse, social not sexual, it's a conversation,though with someone as loutish and insensible as you it's difficult. Cheesy and gammonish as you are, I at least make an attempt but you make if extremely difficult, what point are you making? Are you so incapable of intercourse that your only recourse is stupid insults, if so kindly keep them to yourself. Go forth and multiply, troll.
On Thu 3 Sep at 8:14am Dreamer wrote:
As a reference for anyone who cares, below is the legend of the table TP keeps referring to:
"Table 3 shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death."
Verbatim, from the CDC webpage. If someone could help me find the word "prexisting" in there, I would be most grateful.
On Thu 3 Sep at 9:05am Ferret wrote:
Disagreeing with someone spouting nonsense conspiracy theories, fake news or just plain and simple untruths is not evidence of a desire to belittle, insult or denigrate anyone. Nor am I a supporter of this government, especially its performance during this crisis. The absolute opposite in fact. I suspect that your extreme reaction to criticism is symptomatic of your anxiety about the terrible situation we all faced, and the appalling consequences of government failure.
On Fri 4 Sep at 11:48pm Tom Pain wrote:
Disagreeing with someone is not an excuse to insult them either. Conspiracy theory, fake news, untruths. What's that? Whilst you continue with such terms of endearment, how can you hope to have a rational conversation? Look at what you and your fellow critics say and tell me it's not insulting. Where's the conspiracy theory in quoting the CDC? My interpretation of it may be different to yours but is it too much to ask for a little pluralism? All I did was quote something that obviously threatens your stance,or why the barrage of abuse? The second half of what you say is a bit more communicative, now I can almost believe you are possibly sincere. You're right we are in a terrible situation, the government's handling of it is dreadful, the economy and consequently our very ability to eat is possibly threatened. My guess is that you see the threat as the pestilence, mine is that the powers that be are using it as a lever to increase their power enormously. We both have the same enemy and I wish you could see that, instead of fighting someone who is merely on a different front. Further more, the government are just following WHO guidelines, just doing what they are legally bound to do. The WHO changed the rules about what constitutes a pandemic a while ago making it far less stringent. You can make of it what you like but it looks like a licence for vaccine companies to make a fortune at the public purse. That's a theory. The first one I've suggested if you're honest and don't tell me no one's ever conspired to make money dishonestly and without the slightest qualm about the suffering it causes. I don't deal in theories unless they're based on documents I've read by the players involved. If you haven't read them that's not my fault. Have you read Agenda 21,Agenda 2030 ? And considered how they are going to be implemented? I think your knee jerk reactions to what I say might be somewhat different if you do. Not that I hold out much hope of that,it would be very uncomfortable.
On Sat 5 Sep at 7:54am Ferret wrote:
You can have the last word. I'm agreeing with Local99 now.
On Sat 5 Sep at 9:10am Mark wrote:
But really, Tom. Don't you actually always beat me hands down in terms of being insultative??
On Sun 6 Sep at 1:46pm Tom Pain wrote:
Strange word ,but I'd hope so mark. I think I have the right to fight back against your abuse. Pretty predictable from the ferret, shut your eyes,put your fingers in your ears and bury your head in the sand.
On Mon 7 Sep at 10:59am Tom Pain wrote:
I see the yawn has presaged the inevitable slumber,so merely to amuse myself I'll indulge my heretical proclivities. Some pretty big words there eh,though I can't promise any great syntactical or punctuationical feats. Over the weekend I observed some wonderful covidiocies at a boot sale of all places. Plenty of masks of course and the officials gloved and visored to the hilt. And when I say officials I mean it, things were very Dad's Army. The air raid warden was multiply represented. This plandemic has certainly brought all the control freaks out of the woodwork, no pointless regulation was too petty to try and enforce. There were gangways and directional arrows, the whole panoply of control techniques. Unfortunately they were completely useless when the punters clustered round a promising table. I see the drooping eyelids and other symptoms so I'll scuttle back to my contaminated virally compromised solitude.
On Tue 8 Sep at 1:04pm Tom Pain wrote:
Oh looks like I'm maybe half awake for a moment or two.Still dreaming a bit of political power, I'll start the Tom Paine for Totalitarian Government Party. I'll have a very communist manifesto and back climate crisis and health paranoia, all the fear buttons will be pushed. The Tom Paine name will give the right tone in Transition Town Lewes,and let's face it, no one looks below the surface, they're terrified of being called conspiracy theorists.Morpheus is rising now, I'm drifting off, probably forget it by tomorrow......
On Tue 8 Sep at 8:56pm Twostime wrote:
@Tom Paine, many thanks for your efforts, despite all the derision above, perhaps people could be less partisan. I'm not sure where you stand, I'm left of the "Labour" party. The new "normal" isn't normal. It isn't justified, or reasonable. It is not justified if you look at Oxford or Cambridge University DEATH stats. It is not reasonable if you understand that families (that is all of us) need social contact; the current environment is banning that. (Thank the lord I wasn't born in Victoria in Auz.) Just for a laugh because I'm sure the majority here eat grass, here is a picture from the mask package I bought from everyone's favourite super, Tesco: So this mask won't protect you; and others wearing it won't be protected either?... Who is protected? When the Hophead is gone I'll drink Harvey's. They have a great Sussex slogan - "We Wunt be Druve" - we shouldn't.
On Wed 9 Sep at 10:26am Ferret wrote:
Most people got the message that face masks don't really protect the user much, unless they are KN95 or N95 masks, or better. They are useful to reduce the amount of virus transmitted from the wearer to others. The failure to wear a mask is a statement of utter selfishness, and lack of consideration for your fellow Sussex types. "We won't be druv" even if it kills others, eh?
On Wed 9 Sep at 10:27am Tom Pain wrote:
I don't stand anywhere in the vacuum of politics, there's nowhere to put my feet in the fantasies of con men or utopians. It's pleasant to hear another voice not shrieking along with the parrot's chorus. I've just listened to This Masquerade by the Carpenters, it's a fitting anthem to the summer of deception and a theme tune for the end of another episode of Transition Townies, the saga of everyday urban folk in the Blighted Isles. Oh dear, I'm nodding off again.
On Wed 9 Sep at 1:45pm Ferret wrote:
As always, there's always one who is the only one marching in step...
On Wed 9 Sep at 3:10pm Tom Pain wrote:
Like the Paine with an E ?
On Wed 9 Sep at 6:00pm Ferret wrote:
The real Tom Paine spoke for the millions who had no say in anything, and for the masses cheated by the few.
On Wed 9 Sep at 6:16pm Nevillman wrote:
Tom pain knows that Tom Paine upset many people by speaking what in the opinion of many was the uncomfortable truth. Tom pain is very good at half of that.
On Wed 9 Sep at 10:29pm Local99 wrote:
On Thu 10 Sep at 10:55am Tom Pain wrote:
That half seems too much round here, Nev. Cheated by the few? Cheating? Using underhand methods? Like ,maybe slanting statistics? Possibly suggesting that a seasonal virus with a mortality rate of about 0.01% of the population is akin to the Black Death? Ruining the economy so that those same cheats can reset it and cheat even more efficiently? Surely they wouldn't do that? They wouldn't use the media they own to manipulate popular opinion to get the people to ask for all their rights to be rescinded,would they? They couldn't get you to smear and sneer at anyone who has the effrontery to suggest that they are just doing what they have always done and acting like the congenital cheats you say they are? Bewildering isn't it?
On Thu 10 Sep at 4:01pm Green Sleeves wrote:
0.01% isn't the mortality rate once infected though is it Thomas? In fact you have just made up a figure to trivialize a virus that continues to kill about 4000 people a day globally.
I think lockdown went someway in repressing the virus and easing the burden on the NHS. Meanwhile, wearing a mask occasionally where required and regularly washing ones hands is about as unchallenging and harmless as it gets. Maybe it's a nanny state on a slippery slope you have feared your entire life, but we aren't doing anything that drastic that makes me feel it's totally unwarranted or unreasonable. Relax Tom Pain, you may live longer.
On Thu 10 Sep at 7:13pm Tom Pain wrote:
Who was your nanny, Lady Macbeth?
On Sat 12 Sep at 2:51pm Nevillman wrote:
Keep at it Tom.
On Sun 13 Sep at 8:56pm Tom Pain wrote:
When it's dark, north eastish of Lewes there's an aerial with three red lights and further east another with one light, anyone know what it is?
On Mon 14 Sep at 11:02am Tom Pain wrote:
Meanwhile in Covidland, where fear stalks the streets; in their tireless quest to eliminate reality the "government" is dreaming up Operation Moonshot. Are they contemplating disturbing Elvis, who we know is enjoying a peaceful retirement there? Maybe. Their stated intention is shelling out a hundred billion pounds to test people to find out if they have some corona virus in them. It doesn't matter if they are ill and infectious or not because.... who knows. That unimaginable amount of money would go most of the way to funding the NHS for a year. Perhaps they could invest a pound or two in research to find out if face masks inadvertantly cause mental incapacity.
On Mon 5 Oct at 11:23pm IDM wrote:
Well Dreamer "prexisting" sounds like something to do with the EU. "pre-existing"?
On Mon 5 Oct at 11:34pm IDM wrote:
We seem to have lost the plot here - much of the comments are personal acrimony rather than figures. My personal bleat is about the media quoting actuals instead of "per capita". "US deaths over top", when they are much more populous than most places. Yes, OK, they have just about caught us up now, but they were far behind per capita for quite a while.