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On 28 Nov 2021 at 4:49pm Nanook of the North wrote:
New Covid variant detected.

On 28 Nov 2021 at 8:35pm Green Sleeves wrote:
This does look like a nasty variant, and not just because of Boris Johnsons face above.

Had my 2nd jab relatively recently, but may get booster when its been re-calibrated to target this new variant.

Sure the anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers are thrilled they can get more attention in public by obnoxiously not wearing a mask, and bleat about vaccine mandates restricting their freedom to catch and pass on viruses to others.
On 29 Nov 2021 at 10:09am Tom Pain wrote:
Blithely unaware that the health authorities have stated that vaccination does not prevent you from catching the virus or infecting others with it. Or perhaps with willful ignorance and a perverse love of fear mongering and virtue signalling.
On 29 Nov 2021 at 10:35am Green Sleeves wrote:
Nobody of any consequence would say the vaccines eliminate 100% risk of infection or passing on the infection, but it does significantly reduce spread and illness, and hospitalisations and deaths. This is so obvious from the data. Why is that irrelevant to you? Its like if there are no guarantees, its not worth it. You know if you wear a seatbelt, you could still die in a car crash? So what the hell, im not going to wear one as i hate being told to wear a seatbelt. I want to fly through the windscreen as someone on facebook said it was less painful than whiplash. That person once worked for Volkswagen so he has credibility....
On 29 Nov 2021 at 5:35pm Tom Pain wrote:
If you took the time to look at the statistics you would discover that most of the deaths now are vaccinated. There are more people in that category, I know, but it goes to show that the vaccine efficiency wanes very quickly. My seatbelts are as good as they were ten years ago and they're not in VW either.
On 29 Nov 2021 at 7:24pm Green Sleeves wrote:
I think YOU need to take time to look at the vaccine statistics TP. Despite the fact (which you very fleetingly acknowledged) overwhelming majority of the population have been double vaccinated at least by this stage (some have had boosters), a disproportionate number of hospitalisations and deaths have been from the unvaccinated leftovers. Yes, vaccine efficacy falls over time, that is not uncommon for vaccines or natural infection, and was expected although they couldn't be totally sure until time had passed.

Its the same the world over, the groups that are ending up in hospitals the most disproportionately and dying of covid are unvaccinated people. Its why during the last peak earlier in 2021, the daily deaths were as high as 2,000 a day in the UK, where as in the most recent peak (current peak), we're at about 150-250 deaths a day. This is overwhelmingly thanks to the vaccine programme. If we didn't bother at all, the figures would be considerably higher as per the previous wave. Maybe it wouldn't be ten times as many, as some will have natural immunity, but it would be at least quadruple the number of deaths we are currently seeing, and that is a very conservative estimate.

Only a fool would argue against the vaccine, given what we have seen transpire over the last year. It is not far off arguing the case for seatbelts - you wear one because you know it will help you in case of an accident. I'm pleased you are at least not recklessly stubborn in all areas of your life (just irresponsible when it comes to other people and a wildly infectious disease).
On 29 Nov 2021 at 7:34pm Tom Pain wrote:
You good, me bad, as you never tire of saying. How could you possibly be wrong?
On 29 Nov 2021 at 7:38pm Green Sleeves wrote:
I'm not saying you are bad, I just think you want to stand out so much and be heard, you end up believing in bogus alternative theories to give you that platform.

I do think you believe in what you say though, i just think you are misguided and misinformed, but perhaps enjoy the sparring.
On 30 Nov 2021 at 11:22am Tom Pain wrote:
I am of a retiring disposition and the last thing I want to do is stand out. "Alternative" is a sobriquet that rings alarm bells with me concomitant with "truther" it has come to mean the antithesis of what it suggests. I do have a combative side that enjoys sparring but it gets in the way of expressing my thoughts in the rational manner the incipient totalitarian situation demands. The Nuremberg Code was formulated for very good reasons and I feel that being coerced into a medical experiment is repugnant and anyone supporting it is a fascist running dog deserving only contempt no matter how frightened they are.

On 30 Nov 2021 at 11:59am Green Sleeves wrote:
On 30 Nov 2021 at 1:38pm Nanook of the North wrote:
Venn diagram

On 30 Nov 2021 at 1:49pm David Stanley wrote:
If you've had two vaccinations but are sceptical about a booster are you an anti- vaxxer?
On 30 Nov 2021 at 5:45pm Tom Pain wrote:
Cringe like the cur you are greenie. I'm sure you must have some more of your day care centre artwork to show us nanook. No David, you would be an anti hoaxxer.
On 30 Nov 2021 at 6:43pm Nanook of the North wrote:
@Tom Pain, triggered.(the truth hurts).
On 1 Dec 2021 at 10:58am Tom Pain wrote:
Well, well, Nanook, if your intention was to hurt me, you must be really full of hate. I wonder what you would think of the rather unpleasant diagram you posted if, instead of "antivaxers" it said "immigrants"? Not too clever eh. Prejudice against any section of the community is not something I think should be encouraged on the forum and it's sad to see you doing it. As you ought to know, the vaxed are just as able to infect people as anyone else if they catch covid, as they are in increasing numbers.
On 1 Dec 2021 at 11:45am Green Sleeves wrote:
"As you ought to know, the vaxed are just as able to infect people as anyone else if they catch covid, as they are in increasing numbers" - is that actually true TP, or part truth, mostly exaggeration and misleading? While I would not dispute about the possibility of a vaccinated individual being able to pass on the coronavirus, I would highly doubt it would be to a similar degree as an unvaccinated individual.

You may have worded it wisely though, looking back at that statement. Perhaps there is some truth that if you have got covid and you have been vaccinated, then one maybe just as infectious as someone who hasn't been vaccinated and has covid (although i would like to see the data on that). However, its clear that you are much more likely to catch covid unvaccinated anyway, so it seems to be a fairly irrelevant point. The fact it reduces hospitalisations and deaths totally warrants the use of the vaccine. The number of deaths and hospitalisations would have been significantly grimmer had the vaccines never been produced.
On 1 Dec 2021 at 7:08pm SomeLewesian wrote:
It might be true that the protection the vaccine provides allows an individual more opportunity to infect others, greater than an unvaccinated individual with more severe symptoms.
So there could be an axiomatic cognitive dissonance in there somewhere...
On 1 Dec 2021 at 8:56pm Tom Pain wrote:
There's so much contradictory and just plain confusing information from the health service let alone the independent media. Now the health service has changed it's name, or a part of it anyway! Thank goodness I just follow my own reasoning and intuition. A friend of mine has just had the lurgey, the first I've known and he's double jabbed. Looking at the ONS statistics I see more infections, hospitalisations and deaths among the jabbed, but it's presented in a very confusing way. I think the traditional method of handling these things was much better- let it run it's course and get it over and done with. This experiment has just prolonged the agony and increased the casualty rate all due to the hubris and greed of all concerned, apart of course , the victims and front line workers. There's no earthly way of telling if the jabs did anything the innate immune system is not doing, you can't measure it. In Africa the the casualties were far less and so was the meddling, that's enough for me, no confusing data and statistical graphs. Even the UN says the economic consequenses of the unprecedented restrictions will kill far more than the disease. Nuff said.
On 2 Dec 2021 at 2:14pm Green Sleeves wrote:
I'm all for being open-minded, cynical and skeptical about narratives, big business, big-pharma etc....but where was your skepticism when there were clearly many people peddling other medical alternative "treatments"? Also, the immune system is not exactly known for being reliable throughout human history. We have had to develop and create treatment, vaccines and medicines to support the immune system in its bid to save lives. The approach to tackling covid through a vaccine roll-out is hardly controversial, and given that there is plenty of evidence to prove the vaccine is reducing hospitalisations and deaths. You leave humans to let their immune system do all the work, and people die a lot more - this doesn't apply just to COVID.

As for the economic consequences of COVID19 due to restrictions, this could be averted if the government listened and provided the right level of support and invested in its people. It would also be over faster if people took the virus more seriously. I think the saddest consequence is the pressure on the NHS in its entirety, as it has had to cancel many peoples appointments, surgeries etc due to handling the pandemic. We have had all these covid deaths, along with many additional deaths due to late diagnosis or no diagnosis at all.

However you want to distort the statistics TP, the fact is that a disproportionate number of covid hospitalisations and deaths are from the minority unvaccinated group (yes, looking at you). This is alarming given that many of these are younger people as well (perhaps not you in that regard!). The vaccine is doing its job, not 100% perfectly (and that was never promised, we always had figures of 70-90% efficacy, and the overall deaths/hospitalisations would suggest that has been the case). Yes, you can still get sick and die while vaccinated, but as a rule, you got a statistically significantly better chance of not dying.
On 3 Dec 2021 at 11:16am Tom Pain wrote:
UKHSA vaccine surveillance report, covid deaths by vaccine status, England November 25- Week 47 p.31 ish
For 40-60 yr old the numbers were about equal for vaxed and nonvaxed. 70-9yrs unvaxed- 163. Double vaxed- 846. For 80yrs and over the difference is even more marked.
As for hospitalisations in the 70-9 yr old range- unvaxed- 281. Double vaxed- 1489. Now tell me ,who's putting a strain on the NHS?
On 3 Dec 2021 at 11:51am Green Sleeves wrote:
Ok lets take those figures for a second and dig into those.

How many 40-60 year olds across the entire UK population have been vaccinated (twice, or at least even once)? Well, we will have to average them out, but as of today, we're talking about 73% for 40 year olds, up to 90% for the 60 year olds, so lets be conservative and say 80% are double vaccinated (slightly higher for minimum single dose of course). So we have a minority of 20% of 40-60 year olds dying in the same numbers as the majority 80% of the 40-60 year olds who have been vaccinated. What does that tell you? If that doesn't concern you, then I think you may need to do a course on statistics.

As for the real oldies, ie the most vulnerable and those in the 70-90 bracket, the vaccination (double vax + now booster) is upwards of 95%. So those 163 deaths of covid of the tiny 5% unvaxxed in that age group is extremely high as a proportion. Again, I don't know why this is totally passing you by? I don't get how you are interpreting it as a failure of the vaccination program, when a massive disproportionate number of people of unvaxxed people are dying by comparison to those that have been vaccinated.

As i said in a previous post, there is a reason why we're not seeing 1000+ covid deaths a day anymore, unlike in the first two waves. The main differentiator is the vaccine roll out. The deaths would still be there if we ALL were vaccinated, as its not 100% effective (as everyone with common sense understands), but we would probably be in the single digits now if that last 10-20% unvaccinated took their health and others more seriously AND could actually interpret statistics properly or resort to debunked, cringey conspiracy theories.
On 3 Dec 2021 at 5:57pm Tom Pain wrote:
I'm not interested in proving anything. All I'm saying is that there are more vaxed people in hospital and dying than unvaxed. Its exactly what I said before, to your supercilious dismissal. Im not a statistician, you're correct, but neither are you or you'd know how statistics are manipulated. On second thought, maybe you are and enjoy practicing your dark art. You certainly know how to spin things in an extremely manipulative underhand manner, my bet is: you're a civil servant, probably reframed by Common Purpose. There ARE more vaxed in hospital as proved by the statistics.
On 3 Dec 2021 at 6:27pm Green Sleeves wrote:
That could be the worst point you may have ever made in the history of you being "Tom Pain". Its like some sort of Fox News style weaselly cop out of the true reality. You are like the forums Jacob Rees Mogg.

At least those in hospital who were vaccinated at least made some effort to protect themselves, they were unlucky they got sick from covid, they were the 10% unlucky ones that it only worked so far for (they could have indeed been worse off/sooner had they been unvaccinated). Those in hospital with covid that refused the vaccines can only blame themselves really. Its not a case of wishing ill will on anyone, its about common sense and taking precautions. Its why you and I wear a seatbelt when driving.....and that tends to only protect ourselves (where as wearing a mask and getting a vaccine will lower infections/deaths all round).

But deny deny deny all you want. Its what keeps you going, the dream that one of your fringe theories comes true.
On 3 Dec 2021 at 11:09pm Tom Pain wrote:
I haven't got a fringe for a start. Mogg !!!!! It's you who's following him into covid land, not me. This left right dialectic was invented by people like Mogg and Gaymog : the plutocratic City Mafia. You really want me to play the Right card, don't you and keep that game alive. The casino's fixed, the cards,red and black are marked; only the house wins. Trump and Biden are both duds like Johnson and Starmer. Take Starmer, that safe pair of hands! He's an active member of the Tri-Lateral Commission, a Rockefeller organisation, Rockefeller, you know Capitalisicus Maximus. Oh he's divesting his fossil fuel invesments!!! Check out how they broke up his oil monopoly.....and how he kept it under different names. I bet you haven't looked at the Lockstep document- it's the present, predicted 10 years ago, or rather planned. While you're looking right and left, in front of you they're robbing you blind.What about the Covid Act? Oh they wouldn't set up a dictatorship under cover of a disease, how could they be so ruthless? Come on, these are the families and their organisations who set up the British Empire. Sniff and sneer all you like, when the gloves come off your compliance won't win you any favours,you're just another pleb. It's rather ironic how someone who can't wait to shout anti semitism thinks the Nuremberg Code is cringeworthy, isn't it. But then left and right is more important.
On 3 Dec 2021 at 11:12pm Nanook of the North wrote:
Tom Pain = Q
On 5 Dec 2021 at 10:16am Tom Pain wrote:
I've never supplied James Bond with the tools of his trade. Getting back on subject, have you seen the news from Gibraltar? It appears that the residents are 100% vaxed and yet the contagion is rampant. As you are concerned by the covid problem and an avid vax promoter, perhaps you can explain this conundrum.
On 5 Dec 2021 at 11:38am Nanook of the North wrote:
Gibraltar does NOT make the case for vaccine critics. See link below.

Check it out here »
On 5 Dec 2021 at 12:41pm Green Sleeves wrote:
LOL. Poor old Tom. He cant peddle any unreliable source or theory without it getting debunked almost instantaneously.

He needs to find a new place where people lap up that kind of stuff and dont bother to fact check him. Maybe a flat earth society, or some Piers Corbyn fansite. A place that fosters healthy discussion about Tupacs death, 5g networks, moon landings and chemtrails. Anything to distract from the monotony of reality.
On 5 Dec 2021 at 9:51pm Tom Pain wrote:
Oh dear Mr Niceandkindy does seem to have got out of bed on the wrong side today. Polygraph Info is a USA Government propaganda outlet, Nanook, well trusted by the CIA and other charitable institutions. By the way, they're looking to recruit keen new blood for their next war to spread democracy.
On 5 Dec 2021 at 11:04pm Nanook of the North wrote:
Tom Pain is in the pocket of the aluminium industry and is clearly sponsored by Baco Foil.

On 6 Dec 2021 at 9:58am Tom Pain wrote:
How kind of you to post a photo of yourself, Nan, couldn't you have found a more flattering one though? Slightly embarrassed at being gulled by the Voice of America? Believe me, that hat won't protect you from the stuff that comes out of your TV. We all are to some extent or another- I believed Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and voted for Blair!

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" How about 50 years ago when those unimpeachable scientists were predicting an ice age? Idiots eh? Same old trolls, ad hominems... more
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