On 6 Jul 2016 at 11:35am Me wrote:
Looking back at the referendum, two things struck me aside from the main issue.
One was that mainstream politicians did not understand the whole spectrum of opinion .Racist tactics by UKIP were condemned by the main campaign ,( although it was they that switched the campaign to an exclusively anti-immigrant message .) This is because they are used to having to speak only to centrist Liberals in swing seats. It is a sad fact that as many were attracted to this message as repelled.
The second was how unused those people outside the centre of the spectrum were to being addressed. The figures produced by Brexit in the last two weeks were outright lies and their misinformation on the economy was contradicting every authoritative source there is. Why were so many oblivious to the difference between sense and nonsense?
It seems to me having been ignored by for so long a large part of the population incapable of making informed decisions when there are competing narratives . In the past actual involvement was near universal with Unions on one side and a range of social battalions on the conservative side Their flight from the field has left a formless mob attracted by anything shiny and simple .
The conclusion is that we cannot go on with our ailing electoral system. Moderate Labour supporters have no-one to vote for. The SNP are over represented ,UKIP under represented and the voter has become an ill-informed unnoticed hinterland for whom arguments are not developed or critical faculties honed .
This civic corrosion has put this country at the greatest possible peril by choosing the monstrous risks associated with Brexit largely out of sheer ignorance. Furthermore we cannot go on asking voters, like me , to support a Conservative Party most of which I detest ( I will not ) , or ordinary Labour voters to vote for a collapsing virtually Communist leadership at war with a Social Democratic Party.
The two Party system is now a trap and no longer provides the one thing it had in its favour; stability
It is a tragedy that our chance of electoral reform came at the wrong time but people of all shades of opinion are coming to see it as essential for the future.
Does anyone agree (for a change )
On 6 Jul 2016 at 12:26pm Jester wrote:
Are you really still droning on about the poxy referendum?! Give it a rest. We're out! Bottom line! Get on with your life rather than dwelling on something nobody can now do anything about!
On 6 Jul 2016 at 12:34pm Lewes Voter 3 wrote:
Thank the Lord God we're out, and out means out forever at last. Notify Europe, close the door, clean the country out and be properly British with an army and schools we can be proud of, not negotiate-for-everything-in-nine-languages-European. Never ran my work that way, don't expect my British nation to be run that way.
On 6 Jul 2016 at 1:01pm Jerry wrote:
Your British nation? Anyway, anyone wanting to know the human story behind Farage's disgusting migration poster, can I suggest they tune into Exodus: Our Journey to Europe on BBC2 next week. A lot of the Syrians featured would be a better asset to Britain than a lot of the mean-spirited xenophobes who voted Leave
On 6 Jul 2016 at 1:05pm slow to anger wrote:
I am absolutely sick of the smug presumption that anyone who voted to leave the EU, a bureaucratic neo liberal organisation must have been stupid, misinformed, fascist and/or racist. It is perfectly possible to hold a balanced well informed argument that leaving the EU is a sensible move. However because that view does not consist of sound bites or slogans it is rarely publicly raised.
Meanwhile unreported failing Italian banks, well embedded leave contemplations in other member countries, and the ailing Chinese economy all seem to be contributing more to the weakness of the pound than 'Brexit'.
At least Chilcot seems on the surface to have bravely done the right thing. His report highlights the cabal governance that we continue to endure - Neo liberal rule by the few, with the US President even flown in to endorse it!
On 6 Jul 2016 at 1:19pm JMMM wrote:
@Me was writing about the need for electoral reform, not the referendum. The first past the post system is just not good enough and the need for a higher turn out at elections is paramount. How can any issue be decided by less than 75% turnout. It is just as important to know how the non-voters think as it is to know how those who turned up to vote think. In the case of the recent referendum, how the missing 28% think. In the case of the PCC elections, how the missing 90% think. PCCs are being paid on high salaries on the say so of about 6% of the electorate (representing the majority of the 10% who bothered to turn out), which is utterly ludicrous. There are many and various systems of voting throughout the democracies of the world all of which try to give a true representation of what the people want. If we want our country back, let's start by looking at home. Reform the Lords and find a more representative way to elect the Commons which really reflects the will of the people. First past the post just isn't good enough any more.
On 6 Jul 2016 at 4:20pm Cape man wrote:
Like what was said, out is out, there's no going back. Britain will be great again no doubts there ! Apart from Southern rail it will all run like clockwork. Trust me I'm an England footballer.
On 6 Jul 2016 at 6:14pm Really wrote:
A narrow and entirtely misled majority voted to leave the European Union. theu did not vote top leave the single market or to retain no links with the European Union in some other posible arrangement
in fact one might reasonably suggest that had cameron got a better set of offers we would probably have remained , byt the wike people actully see the country collpasing we certainly would
There is no mandate then beyond leaving the EU and we can do that whilst retainign much of the advantages . STayiong would have been trillions cheaper and better but ..what can you say " I would not have started from here "
On 6 Jul 2016 at 8:43pm Q wrote:
Does anyone think that the "Remain" people on here are going to ever let it go? Not really.
Does anyone think that the overwhelming majority of MPs and others, who were in favour of Remain, have really accepted that out is out? Not really.
Does anybody think that they will conspire and trick and cheat to get what they want? Absolutely.
Does anybody think that Mark Carney would allow himself to be part of this conspiracy? Absolutely.
Why else would he be promising 150 billion of liquidity, say that there are already early signs of the dire consequences of Brexit and talk of lowering interest rates still further? To talk the pound down and bring about the disasters prophesied during the campaign.
We have to be vigilant and make it known that we will not tolerate this campaign, that it will not wash with us.
Did Farage resign too soon? Absolutely.
On 6 Jul 2016 at 10:49pm Tipex wrote:
Does anyone find it annoying when someone pretends to ask a question only to answer it themselves?
On 7 Jul 2016 at 7:37am Do I give a monkey's ? wrote:
No I don't. Kind regards.
On 7 Jul 2016 at 11:59am I wrote:
I'm sure many who voted remain did so for the sincerest of reasons.
Such a shame the massive post Brexit arrogance of a loud mouthed luvvie infested chunk of Remain has such a disgustingly dismissive and superior attitude to the great mass of working class people who voted out
On 7 Jul 2016 at 12:03pm John Stockdale wrote:
@Me is right. The UK's democratic system which was always flawed is now broken. Blair showed how it could be whipped and manipulated. Chilcot shows conclusively that the Iraq venture was a complete disaster for us, for the people of Iraq and for the ongoing political situation in the powder keg that is the Middle East. Does it matter that it was given democratic cover in the House of Commons and partial cover by the UN? Iíd say the same thing about Brexit. I have grave doubts about referendums.
We have a representative democracy where we pay those we elect to read the papers, debate the issues, negotiate options and then vote on our behalf and take the consequences if they get it wrong. The electorate were assaulted on both sides by biased headlines, exaggerated claims and downright lies. The In/Out vote could not be nuanced or amended to specify acceptable conditions as it could in Parliament Ė and itís clear the Leave Campaign leaders were not agreed on an immigration policy other than to maximise its impact on the vote. And this triggered some ongoing racist incidents unconnected with EU immigration.
The Iraq War was a stupid decision, we continue to pay the price for it. The Leave vote has already set off an economic disaster: sinking pound, fleeing jobs and investment, huge hike in the cost of servicing our national debt. The continuing pre-eminence of Londonís financial services which provide a third of the Governmentís tax revenues is threatened. Four property funds have now been forced to suspend withdrawals. Instead of £350m extra per week for NHS there will be tax rises and spending cuts. In leaving the EU we lose all the privileges weíve negotiated over the years including the rebate and regional grants. But iItís clear that the Leavers want to keep access to the single market without free movement Ė and thatís not going to happen. Meanwhile, the perpetrators, Cameron, Johnson and Farage are clearing off, leaving a clone of Margaret Thatcher to pick up the pieces.
The case for a rethink is unanswerable, whether through a free vote in Parliament on Article 50 or another referendum when the EUís terms are clear or a general election. If ĎLeaveí is carried again, Iím ready to accept it. But not otherwise.
On 7 Jul 2016 at 12:17pm Bert wrote:
Right on cue
Arrogance turns up
On 7 Jul 2016 at 1:27pm Me wrote:
Pound now predicted to go to parity with dollar by August. This is absolutely horrifying. Regrexits are going to find it hard to admit how wrong they were, some never will of course.
We need to try and understand some of the reasons for doing this or positions will solidify . Many Brexiteers quite simply believed the lies they were told and you have to admit that respect for experts and authority has dwindled for good reason.
I certainly don`t accept a Mugabeesque non Parliamentary diktat on the basis of some dodgy plebiscite. That is not democracy.
On 7 Jul 2016 at 4:39pm Horrified wrote:
A Mugabeesque non Parliamentary diktat must be worse than a Thatcherite interest rate with Falklands thrown in. Unless you're Sussex Jim.
On 7 Jul 2016 at 7:31pm Remainer wrote:
Yes, John Stockdale. You sum it all up correctly. I am still waiting for someone to tell me what they thought would be achieved by Leaving ... 'I want my country back' was a constant cry. Back from what? How is the current turmoil and the financial consequences going to deliver this?
As has been said here, and said very well on Panarama this week, the despair of those voting for Brexit has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with the past ten years or more of our governments not addressing many, many problems and purely supporting the 'haves'. Brexit was a howl of rage against our elites. But, we have now thrown the baby out with the bath water. Rising prices and taxes will not help those who's voted 'out'. We definitely need a better parliamentary system. To have a new PM who is totally unelected by the country is a disgrace. We need a general election and then a new system of government for the people, by the people.
On 7 Jul 2016 at 9:22pm Local wrote:
So, a small-time self-interested wannabe playtime poxy local politician doesn't want referendums. Surprise surprise.
A referendum to go in, a referendum to leave; what could be fairer?
On 8 Jul 2016 at 3:20pm A Person wrote:
We had already joined at the time of the first Referendum in 1975, so people had some idea of what they were voting for. So it actually wasn't a "referendum to go in" it was a consultation on whether to stay.
The main problem, for me anyway, is that the information offered to the public by the campaigns was absurdly unreliable, and in the case of the Leave campaign, actively and profoundly dishonest. The UK's contributions never were £350m a week for instance, and in order to reach any kind of trading arrangement with the European free trade area we'd have to allow free movement of people. We've had the unedifying spectacle of the Leave campaigners abandoning ship in the wake of their "victory", largely I fear because they didn't think for a minute they'd "win".
I haven't heard from any of you Leavers what it is you think you've gained? From my POV we've needlessly smashed up the economy without a single idea of what we'll do next.
On 9 Jul 2016 at 12:34am Local wrote:
OK person, if you want to be pedantic; a referendum on the 'starting terms' of membership negotiated in the two year period immediately after joining. The same %s seen last month, but without the hysteria of the losing side seen this time.
People like you saying ludicrous things like "we've smashed up the economy" is hardly a display of British spirit, is it? I imagine you would moan that "ISIS have smashed up our country" if and when they launch an attack in the UK, rather than standing tall and promoting the UK as it should be promoted around the world.
On 9 Jul 2016 at 12:20pm A Person wrote:
You'll be calling me a traitor next. What has ISIS got to do with *anything*?!
Near parity with the dollar? Excellent work. Thousands of jobs already moving to the EU. Fantastic. Racist attacks all over this nation? The imminent breakup of the union? I've been ashamed of this country in the last two weeks. Good job everyone.
On 9 Jul 2016 at 8:21pm Woody wrote:
John Stockdale's post was the best I've seen on here in ages.
Bert - it's not arrogance, it's a clear summation of the past few weeks, with an informed and understandable position taken.
Deserved more than a 'thumbs up'.