On 15 Nov 2011 at 6:05pm Mr Forks wrote:
Interesting Old Bill stats from the 5th, Argus take note that virtually all the arrests were people not from Lewes!
Check it out here »
On 15 Nov 2011 at 6:06pm Mr Forks wrote:
On 15 Nov 2011 at 6:21pm Me wrote:
And pretty much all were drunk and disordely
On 15 Nov 2011 at 7:23pm mickyboy wrote:
fascinating just 13 incidents, considering the size of the crowd, in policing terms a very quiet night.
On 15 Nov 2011 at 7:45pm Lord Ballantyne wrote:
But according to ACC the injuries figure 'still too high' .... even tho' only 0.00283% of 60,000 were hurt...
On 16 Nov 2011 at 8:12am Lewes Lady wrote:
Move on. nothing to see
On 16 Nov 2011 at 8:28am DFL wrote:
So, 170 hurt, and that's OK is it ? There shouldn't be ANY injuries, full stop. There should be an injury "league table" for the societies to see who's the worst. And as for the drunken bums, why don't we close the pubs after, say, midday ? I was down near the Gardeners at lunchtime on the 5th and there was a group of ageing hippies (i.e. all over 60 !) drinking like there was no tomorrow and throwing rookies at every passer by - complete morons. Says a lot about landlords doesn't it ? (except Huw)
On 16 Nov 2011 at 8:54am Dangerous Brian wrote:
The 5th is second only to new years eve as regarding a pubs take. So that ain't gonna happen. May I suggest you stay in next year, and stop stirring up trouble on here with your 'league table' idea. Toughen up or stay away, bonfire's not a family friendy carnival (apart from csbs). We managed this well even before you graced our town with your presence.
On 16 Nov 2011 at 10:03am Penguin wrote:
Try to get things into perspective DFL. People get injured all the time, even when they are stone cold sober and in the safety of their own home without a torch or firework in sight. If the 60,000 people who came to Lewes had stayed at home on the fifth, there is quite a good chance that at least some of them would have hurt themselves - cuts, bruises, scalds, falling down stairs etc. The tiny percentage of people recorded as 'injured' on Bonfire Night include all these kind of things. Furthermore, most of the 'injuries' are to members of the public (eg. falling off walls, drinking too much, fighting etc) and cannot be attributed to any particular society or even blamed on Bonfire as a whole.
Drunk people in pubs, now there is a new one! I think you will find that on any day of the year, and as for a group of over 60's throwing fireworks at EVERY passer by - really ??? Don't think so.
I wonder how the figures for those either injured or drunk look for Notting Hill Carnival? or maybe a Chelsea / Arsenal match? Slightly higher I would guess, but then I suppose that is in London so probably quite acceptable.
On 16 Nov 2011 at 10:40am Lewes Lady wrote:
My son sprained his ankle at the primary school sports day. Do you think we should ban school sports days?
Yours with warmeth and affection
On 16 Nov 2011 at 11:52am DFL wrote:
LL, thank for the warmth and affection, sorry to hear about your son's ankle.
Now then Penguin et al. Sustaining an injury should not be a "normal" everyday event. We as humans should ensure that we are all safe, and do our utmost to make sure no one is hurt at ANY event. I admire the bonfires just as much, if not more, than everyone else. All I'm suggesting is that more focus should be given to reducing and eradicating bonfire injuries. And as for drunk people in pubs, I think you'd better read up on the law regarding serving intoxicated people !! AND, I'm not blaming any society, bonfire or otherwise. AND, having less injuries than other carnivals etc., is not a fact to be proud of when we shouldn't have any injuries at all ! Sadly there is a small immature element in Lewes who have no regard for the locals or their bonfire societies and abuse the use of fireworks in their drunken stupour.
On 16 Nov 2011 at 12:17pm Boot wrote:
I was also outside the gardeners on the 5th from about Lunch time.
And noticed very few rookies going off.
I also failed to notice any rampaging retired people, just the usual gardeners lunch time crowd and a few people having a beer before going home to get into their costumes. None of who I would call aging hippies.
On 16 Nov 2011 at 12:45pm Ed Can Do wrote:
DFL, why are you so insistent that irresponsible firework use by society members is the cause of all the injuries you're so keen to irradicate when the evidence clearly suggests the problem is in fact drunk people from out of town injuring themselves? I think you'll find that drinking on the street is illegal in much of Lewes but I didn't notice much enforcement of that particular law on the 5th. Clearly the common problem here is the police and their unwillingness to uphold the law as it is written.
Or perhaps there is no problem and the health and safety brigade can go back to worrying about the mortal dangers of sack races and smoking in cars rather than getting all in a tizz because some people drank too much and fell over on a night out.
On 16 Nov 2011 at 1:21pm Captain wrote:
Shame no arrests for smashing car wing mirrors or car windows....
On 16 Nov 2011 at 4:09pm bastian wrote:
I pricked my finger on a pin at work..I think i'll stay at home because the pins aren't safe to use
oh no, the kettle's hot
help! the stairs are steep, i might fall down them
Or, we could all just except that the number, considering the crowd and traditional event, at which it is clearly pointed out that it could be dangerous, is very small for casualties.
DFL, cotton wool makes a cosey jacket, but round here it's just not fashionable.
On 16 Nov 2011 at 4:57pm DFL wrote:
ECD, where in my posts have I said " irresponsible firework use by society members is the cause of all the injuries" ? the irresponsible people were the drunken idiots sitting outside the Gardeners at around midday of the 5th (well, some of them at least), and if that crowd is the regular midday crowd, it doesn't say much for the Gardeners does it. I can put my hand on heart and say that all societies are totally responsible and would not allow this sort of thing to happen. Bastian, spare me please.
On 16 Nov 2011 at 5:24pm Penguin wrote:
You didn't actually use those words, but your suggestion that the societies should draw up a league table to see which is the worst for injuries would certainly imply that is what you believe. If not, then what did you mean by it?
On 16 Nov 2011 at 5:50pm Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
An injury league table would be meaningless as injuries are just as likely to be caused by members of the public.
A lot of those injuries will be things like trips and falls which are nothing to do with any society.
The best way to reduce the number of injuries would be to reduce the number of people attending.
On 16 Nov 2011 at 7:37pm Decent Citizen wrote:
A real heads together is needed to discuss ways to lesson the influx. Our beautiful Town is way too small to accommodate and contain the ever increasing numbers. Discourage by closing pubs or,as happened years ago ,only locals were allowed in.Stop advertising far and wide. Make parking even more difficult. Close ,or block off the main roads in. THAT sort of publicity beforehand would/could deter. Many, many years ago,we took our children and watched from the pavement. I cannot recall fearing for my children or my own safety.The crowds were absolutely nothing like they are now.We had a wonderful time,ending in the Royal Oak where Collette Chapman only allowed in regulars.
On 16 Nov 2011 at 10:47pm Spartacus wrote:
DC. Is it really ever increasing numbers. I'm not picking a fight, just wondering. My memory is that it was always busier and more edgy back in the 80s while 60000 for a weekend seems to have been a pretty steady number over the last 20 years or so. Are there any figures?
Personally I'm not bothered about people coming in from out of town, just when they puke/piss on my doorstep. I would like to see the police enforce a prohibition of drink at and through the station. A dump you're drink or go home policy, don't know if thats legal mind.
On 16 Nov 2011 at 11:03pm carpinteyroamo wrote:
On 17 Nov 2011 at 8:30am DFL wrote:
Penguin, keeping stats on how many accidents, and how they were caused would help the societies and police to focus on areas causing the most injuries. As ACT quite rightly points out, they may be caused by the general public (i.e. anyone not involved with any society), and these incidents may be caused by drunken behaviour or sober behaviour or whatever. But by having regular stats, we would be able to identify trends, and hence focus our energies on the more critical incidents. Seems like a sensible idea to me, I'm a bit surprised that this isn't being done already by a committee of council/police/societies ? But if it is (1) great, (2) could we see some information please.
On 17 Nov 2011 at 9:51am Ed Can Do wrote:
I think the point you're missing is that virtually none of the injuries are caused by societies or their members and with almost all of them joining a single procession through the town, how on earth would you assign injuries to different societies?
The reason people are getting defensive to your point is that the societies put in a ton of work to make their firesites as safe as humanly possible and it's a little disheartening when the actions of drunken idiots from out of town somehow get blamed on the societies. This was the tamest year I can remember in terms of rookies being used in the procession and a lot of work went into ensuring that no members of the public ended up in the society members areas of the firesites.
Several people seem desperate to blame the societies and their members for the injuries sustained and arrests but the truth is that 170 injuries is a massive exageration of the level of actual injuries worth worrying about sustained and of the rest, anecdotal evidence (Which is all we have) suggests they were almost uniformly sustained by people who were too drunk, injuries they could have sustained on any night out in any town. All but a couple of the arrests were likewise out of towners and most were drink related.
Societies can only do so much. They control their members very rigidly and control the crowd on the procession route and at their firesites but you can't expect them to police the whole town, that's the job of the police. What's needed is to stop people coming into town, stop people getting so drunk they fall over and injure themselves and persuade people who don't like loud bangs not to attend the procession on the 5th and instead go to an outmeeting for their bonfire fix. None of these things are enforecable by the societies and really are a matter for the police/southern rail/pub landlords. Stop the trains, focus the police effort on removing drunk people from the crowd and persuade landlords to be a little more selective about who they serve and most of the perceived problems are eliminated.
On 17 Nov 2011 at 1:51pm Decent Citizen wrote:
Sparctacus,way,way, before the 80s! So yes,in my long experience the numbers have increased! Of course along the way,the yobbish,drunken element have been spawned as well! For the sake of the many who enjoy bonfire,all the hard work that goes into it,I really do hope common sense will prevail and those who are in a position to make sensible changes,do so.
On 17 Nov 2011 at 2:08pm Bored wrote:
Please can we forget it now, FFS
On 17 Nov 2011 at 5:56pm Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
I think a more detailed analysis of the injury figures would be helpful, actually. My feeling is that if only 22 of the 170 needed to go to hospital, that's a pretty good result.
I suspect that the other 148 were probably pretty trivial, frankly. After all, even with a sprain they're likely to send you to hospital for an x-ray. And don't forget, on the night they see a fair few people showing up with old injuries that they've decided to get looked at, just because there happens to be a handy first aid post nearby.
On 17 Nov 2011 at 8:39pm Yet again wrote:
again societies encourage the behaviour of the crowd. You could almost say that the crowd gains much of their standard of behaviour on the night from the societies. It is they that set the example. The example most in need of correcting and condemning by the societies is the throwing of loud explosives and drunkenness and most especially, the two together.
On 18 Nov 2011 at 10:24am Ed Can Do wrote:
At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, why? Are you honestly suggesting that if people in the procession didn't drink then nobody in the crowd would? Most people processing don't drink that much until after the bonfires anyway, it's a little tricky to hold a drink when you've a torch in one hand and are trying to light rookies with the other after all.
Suggesting that people should stop dropping rookies in the procession is something you only really have the right to do if you are a society member yourself. If you're an onlooker then you're welcome to come and watch if you want but the people on the street aren't there for your benefit and by turning up you are accepting there will be loud bangs and bits of banger flying about. As it stands, anyone chucking bangers out of the crowd is dealt with pretty swiftly either by marshalls or the police but it's not something that will ever be eliminated. Would you go to Pamplona and tell them that whilst the bull run is exciting and a great spectacle, it'd be a lot more enjoyable for spectators without the bulls?
The crowds need reducing and those who do intend need to be a bit more responsible for themselves. Don't bring kids, wear sensible (Thick) clothes, wear eye protection if you're worried and if you don't like loud bangs then go to an outmeeting instead. Simple as that.
On 18 Nov 2011 at 10:35am Penguin wrote:
Went for a curry last night, and overheard the group of people talking on the next table. A couple were telling their out of town friend that 170 people were injured by society members. 'Oh yes, the bonfire people throw fireworks and rockets in peoples faces you know, and they have to have special insurance for that'!! Quite amazing really, but it illustrates how complete and utter rubbish is blindly passed on as fact, in much the same way that it often is on this forum. I dread to think how terrible the carnage will be when the story is passed on again.
On 18 Nov 2011 at 4:37pm DFL wrote:
My point exactly ! You see Penguin, if we had a "proper" database of the incidents that went on, then we would be able to say to these out of towners that they weren't all caused by bonfires or drunks or bystanders or whatever, and "X" amount were caused by this and "Y" amount were caused by that, and these stats could be published on the LDC website for all to see, and hey presto evveryone would be clear as to what caused what and when. So come on LDC/ESCC what do you suggest ?
On 21 Nov 2011 at 11:51am Penguin wrote:
Absolutely DFL, it would be interesting to have a breakdown of the causes of accidents/injuries on the 5th, then we would see that a good percentage of them are just the same as might happen on any saturday night in the year, but because they happen on the 5th they are lumped together and describes as 'Bonfire injuries'. What I was objecting to was your suggestion that these should be attributed to the different societies in a league system.
For example, if someone sprains their ankle slipping off a kerb whilst watching a procession, it is hardly the fault of the society that happens to be passing by at the time.
Similarly, if a child goes on a firesite, and then burns themselves on a sparkler that their parents have given them, it should be nobodys responsibility but the parents. They would have done the same if they had used the sparkler in their own back garden (and I bet more fingers get burnt and more clothes get singed by the hot end of used sparklers than do by rookies).
Problem is that these, along with your normal everyday mishaps, are just the sort of things that make up the Bonfire night injury figures. The fact is that it does not matter so much where or how the accidents happen, it is more to do with the date on the top of the form, and of course it then all gets blamed on Bonfire.
On 24 Nov 2011 at 1:07am AYATOLLAH HOGMANNY wrote:
Hear Hear Penguin, most the injuries are from the crowd for drunken stupidity or teenagers with rookies, and not just in the procession. If the Police were to break down the statistics you would find that 90% of the accidents were nothing to do with the societies and all to do with pissed spectators!!!!!!!
On 28 Nov 2011 at 6:03am Elliptical machine reviews wrote:
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