On 19 Oct 2015 at 9:06pm Tommy Beeza wrote:
Whats the Tory Master Plan?
The Tories call it ‘Economic Modernisation’
More like Economic Destruction!
We know the Tories are gunning for the NHS..
We no longer build Ships anymore..
The Steel Industry is in its death throws..
The Car & Motorcycle Industries have long gone..
The Coal Industry has been laid to waste..
The Police Force & Prison Service is a fiasco..
Our Homes are now out of reach for the normal person, their price’s have been inflated & sold off as holiday homes to the super rich from Russia or China or America or who ever is rich enough & wants to make an ‘investment’!
Is there anything else worth selling off?
Thats why I despise & hate the repugnant Tories with all my heart.
The Tories will happily watch this Country sink & burn with their total commitment to big business & their lobbyist rather than being loyal to the normal British Public.
Check it out here »
On 19 Oct 2015 at 10:56pm Historian wrote:
Basically, we don't make anything anymore, because our labour expense is completely out of control. China, India, The Phillipines, Asia have plenty of people (labour) and no minimum wage, employers national insurance, no holiday pay, no maternity or paternity pay, no sick pay, no free eye tests, no employers pension contributions, to name but a few. Business rates, safety legislation, employers statuary obligations are also zero. Getting the picture.
We just do not compete anymore.
On 19 Oct 2015 at 10:58pm Sussex Dim wrote:
The mistake you're making, like every other left winger, is thinking that the country is doing badly just because there's a terminal decline in jobs and your living standards.
It's not, we'll it is for most people, but for the tiny proportion at the top, things have never been so good. Burlington Club members and their peers are making a killing by sending their manufacturing operations to Asia, where they can get skilled workers for a fraction of what they'd have to pay here. At the same time, opening our borders to immigrants can only drive down wages for what jobs remain, by increasing the pool of desperate unemployed.
Duncan Smith has worked wonders in embellishing that desperation, not least by demonising the unemployed, and blaming them for their failure to land jobs that don't exist. This is manna to the corporations that have the nous to secretly fund Conservative.
George Osborne has pulled off an extraordinary feat too, in allowing the biggest corporations to formulate our tax policies, which is why AstralZeneca, for example, doesn't have to pay any corporation tax anymore. That's saved them, literally, billions of pounds.
Bankers have seen their own salaries and bonuses rise massively since they caused the gfc. How else do you propose to fund them, and the continuation of the Neo Liberal economy with its inherent filings, without austerity for everybody else?
In summary, yes, almost everybody is going to experience worse and worse conditions; your children and mine are the first generation ever that will be poorer than their parents, but all that is a small price to pay for the exponential growth in the wealth of those fortunate enough to be born wealthy in the first place.
We need to stop thinking of the UK as a sociatal entity, and more as a member state of the global economy, wherein we celebrate and measure our success in terms of how wealthy some of the people who choose to live here are.
That's why I vote Tory.
On 19 Oct 2015 at 11:30pm Sussex Prat wrote:
Thats what I thought you might say its a bit rambling to even read. You don't even have the imagination of thinking about your screen name for yourself.
On 19 Oct 2015 at 11:38pm Tommy Beeza wrote:
I wonder how many seconds it will take him to start using my screen name too? Slightly annoying yet flattering.
On 20 Oct 2015 at 12:01am The Tories hate Britain wrote:
Here is what it is all about ,.An agreement was signed in 2012 making the Tories chums in the City of London the main international trading centre for the Chinese currency the Renminbi.The price for this deal? The sacrifice of our steel,railway and nuclear power industry, along with our national security and thousands of skilled British manufacturing jobs.
Check it out here »
On 20 Oct 2015 at 6:36am Maker wrote:
Its true that smokestack industry is in decline in this country along with traditional manufacturing jobs in factories. Succesive governments have made conditions difficult to make them profitable. I agree the evil tories are part of this but lets not pretend labour have helped the matter.
I am interested in how Germany manages to successfully make things on a large scale. Can someone explain the secret?
As someone who makes things for a living I find it quite enjoyable compared with many people I know who seem to hate their work.
On 20 Oct 2015 at 6:57am Earl of Lewes wrote:
I'm just baffled by how a party that claims to be patriotic keeps flogging things off to foreigners. It feels like the Government are holding a closing down sale.
On 20 Oct 2015 at 7:21am Cuban Raft Rider wrote:
Perhaps areas with facilities, infrastructure and a strong history of industry have not been maintained or supported and fallen into decline.
The ironworks at Phoenix was once the biggest employer in town.
On 20 Oct 2015 at 7:26am Carlyle wrote:
The patriotism is just to keep the old folks and mail readers happy. As long as royal babies and spitfires are featured they don't have to bother people with sums.
Just the reciprocal of those yelling "tory scum" all the time who then pop into starbucks and log onto Facebook. Most of us are fully owned one wsy or another.
On 20 Oct 2015 at 7:43am Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
I was going to ask how the Germans manage to keep a manufacturing industry going.
German workers have all the protection that Historian mentions, and their employment rights are far better than those enjoyed by British workers. They get paid higher wages, too.
Perhaps the German government does more to support industry.
On 20 Oct 2015 at 8:18am New Left Thinking wrote:
Oh dear oh dear Corbyn's class warriors are on the march are they. Has that long awaited crisis of capitalism finally come to prove the old bearded one right after all …… exciting isn`t it . Actually no , too dull to bother with .
Leaving the fossils aside I agree with Maker and ANC, I have been interested in the success of the German economy which is a the most productive in the world.
The problem is that because Germany has quite strong unions and is in some ways quite a big state country the hard left argue that if we had stronger unions and more state we would succeed more than we do( Corbyn probably thinks we should be like East Germany ).
This is demonstrably nonsense, both the Conservative and Labour Party have misjudged demand levels, money supply and currency issues (ERM) but Labour must take the blame for the supply side fiasco that was our post war strategy.
Potted history -
Coal Steel Shipping Motor were Nationalised under the influence of the totalitarian war time model and the left of Labour ( what we would now call Bennite ) destroyed by the fallacy of big is good central planning and irresponsible politicised Nationally organised Unions . Add to this a mistaken belief in Keynsian demand lead economics and it was slow car crash.
To the horror of the antediluvian Bennites manufacturing output actually increased under Thatcher while employment was brutally shaken out. The cure was tough, no doubt about it , but the long sickness was to blame.
On Germany there are a few things that might be worth looking at
1 The regionally close relationship between banks state unions and private sector
2 The strength of regions and the lack of Nationally based unions (leading to responsible unions )
3 The willingness to let failure fail
4 The social proactiveness of the private sector which invests in apprenticeships by tradition on a huge scale
On the other hand Germany does benefit form a currency that allows them to sell their stuff half price so its not all magic and this is not a failing country, by any means, nor is it “right wing” .We have a more progressive tax code than our European neighbours generally and America is , after all , much more productive than Europe
Still…that German example is fascinating.
On 20 Oct 2015 at 9:34am Maker wrote:
Hands up if you wanted to go into industry when you were at school? The image has been tarnished deliberately by politicians,educators and media who portray such work as unexciting and plebeian.
Watch T.V and see hours of film of handsome pilots and SAS soldiers but how often do you see the designers,fabricators,fitters,gunsmiths and technicians who make the difference between success and failure portrayed.
This is why the shed and maker space movement is growing. Unspectacular people getting together and producing for the enjoyment of all.
Let's have some more pro-making propaganda.
Trustee from the toolshed. Neville Shute
First of the few. Heroic engineering
Apollo 13. Engineers in glasses save the day
Back room Boys. Francis Spufford
On 20 Oct 2015 at 10:03am King of Sussex wrote:
So, what is that now Thick Paul, you're 6th or 7th pseudonym?
Well done for continuing to stick up for the party who wouldn't support your own political career.
Why was that?
Is it because you were simply too thick to even be a Tory minister or because you didn't go to one of the right schools?
On 20 Oct 2015 at 10:04am Merlin Milner wrote:
Tommy a little bit a research would show that the UK is about the 7th largest manufacturing country in the world.
However it is myths that seem to win in the public eye
I am proud to have worked in UK engineering and manufacturing for 25 years. 'Maker' I agree with your comments.
Saying things like "Why Doesn’t Britain Make Things Any More !!" perpetuates the myth. Tommy I think an apology is in order please.
On 20 Oct 2015 at 10:35am ? wrote:
King of snark more like!
On 20 Oct 2015 at 10:47am New Left Thinking wrote:
I agree with Maker and Merlin Milner ( we are 10th actually ) to some extent this is the list ( in USD) years shown
China 2,330,684 2011
United States 1,800,500 2013
Japan 1,073,277 2012
Germany 710,951 2013
South Korea 370,393 2013
Italy 284,477 2013
Russia 266,692 2013
Brazil 250,149 2013
France 249,074 2013
India 223,138 2013
U K 219,036 2013
But you have to take out history into account
In 1952, the UK produced a third of the national output, employed 40 per cent of the workforce and made up a quarter of world manufacturing exports.
Today, manufacturing in this country accounts for just 11 per cent of GDP, employs only 8 per cent of the workforce and sells 2 per cent of the world’s manufacturing exports.
So you can see why people think we have lost our manufacturing heart. Is this a bad thing ?The point of trade is to share comparative advantage for mutual gain and we are sellers of services creative work and high end stuff like Pharma.
So the answer is we do make things and we are largely in line with international developments on world position, we did add to the rate of relative decline with socialist post war state meddling .
I think we can do better though
On 20 Oct 2015 at 11:01am Tommy Beeza wrote:
Britain is no longer an Industrial power like it was just 30 - 40 years ago. We just seem to be in a total decline and the fault falls on our Government. Maybe MM is right in part & Britain does make things like for the Arms trade and look at what a mess that has gotten us into.
On 20 Oct 2015 at 11:09am New Left Thinking wrote:
This decline happened largely under the post war leftish big state consensus Tommy.The way forward is not to go back to that
On 20 Oct 2015 at 11:18am Tommy Gun wrote:
There's really no hope with Paul on the case he might blow a fuse with all the excitement.
Help is at hand. See Link:
Check it out here »
On 20 Oct 2015 at 12:16pm ? wrote:
Paul is getting his usual punishment for letting facts into the picture.
I can't help thinking that a lot of "lewes types" think of industry as something boring, thick people who's punctuation is imperfect do in the north rather than small units in the countryside employing PhDs and diploma heavy technicians and selling via ebay,etsy ,alibaba and silk rd (ahem.)
While they formulate rantings against the"evil scum" some of us are toiling upwards in the night to satisfy demand.
On 20 Oct 2015 at 12:46pm Ben wrote:
Re: Why Doesn’t Britain Make Things Any More?
It does......but people choose to by the cheap tat imported from China.
On 20 Oct 2015 at 12:57pm Merlin Milner wrote:
Sadly manufacturing / industry / engineering is treated as trade by the establishment hence the ambivalence to it by governments and the education system. Engineering is a profession and should be treated as such. However the word engineer is used too widely.
We have great manufacturing / industry / engineering businesses in the UK and we should support them and sing their praises rather than assert that they do not exist.
We need more children to study engineering and science and go into industry. I find it difficult to recruit at present.
On 20 Oct 2015 at 2:29pm Merlin Milner wrote:
Interesting link that shows how the picture has changed recently.
Check it out here »
On 20 Oct 2015 at 3:14pm Spartacus wrote:
I love you Merlin, you big hunk of reasonableness.
On 20 Oct 2015 at 3:38pm Tommy Beeza wrote:
Its just a question MM, no need for you to change the title of the thread every time.
I don't pretend that my punctuation will win any awards amongst the typist pool and neither would you if you had just some of the Health problems that I have had to endure.
Engineering is an admirable profession to be sure, but only the one profession. If you take the time to look at my post at the beginning of the thread I'm talking about a whole range of professions!
On 20 Oct 2015 at 3:50pm Modern times wrote:
Chinese and Russians etc. ad Destructum.
On 20 Oct 2015 at 4:10pm wrote:
Obviously not a Lewesian then..
But yes, Britain seems to be ruled by everyone other than the Brits themselves!
On 20 Oct 2015 at 4:13pm Merlin Milner wrote:
Tommy. I changed it because we do make things and I am very proud of that.
We make more cars that we did in the 1970s. we make more cars than France.
Triumph motorcycles are great international success.
We do build ships, I know not many.
I do agree your general sentiments however and we should be building more.
We should be building properly affordable housing.
We should stop selling off our businesses aboard and loosing the intellectual property and tax. For example we had a great nuclear industry that we sold to the French and we now go cap in hand to China and France to build power stations for us with enormous incentives.
We should be encouraging internal investment first inward second. Not the other way round.
On 20 Oct 2015 at 11:15pm Historian wrote:
We make more cars than we ever did ?? Do you mean foreign car companies build cars here, isn't that a bit different ? We've sold everything to foreign owners !! And they shut them down at a drop of a hat !!!
On 21 Oct 2015 at 2:01am Tommy Beeza wrote:
British Rail the Royal Mail the NHS etc etc... The list can go on & on & on.. MM don't you think that I maybe due an apology from you or does your feeling take president over all other matters?
I think it shows at what high regard you hold for oneself!
On 21 Oct 2015 at 10:02am Merlin Milner wrote:
Tommy I changed it because we do make things! Fact!
Sorry if I hurt your feelings or only looked at certain aspects of manufacturing. Now your turn to apologise to those who do make things and keep the UK in the top 10. I agree about the Royal Mail and that the NHS should not be going more privately run. But they still exist and are massive employers. I agree that railway should be publically owned.
Historian, indeed its is mostly foreign owned companies building cars here. But at least they believe in our industry unlike many of the posters on this forum. Stop running it down and lets help build world class British businesses.
On 21 Oct 2015 at 11:00am Maker wrote:
Business has been working on a global scale for decades if not longer. When people talk about "us" or Britain they are seeing things on a scale that is increasingly irrelevant. For instance, Germany isn't supreme in all industries but it has the high quality end pretty much sewn up (apart from VW.)
There is a move to specialisation which makes things more efficient but I can understand why people fear losing capacity in particular industries.
On 21 Oct 2015 at 12:01pm Tommy Beeza wrote:
No Merlin Miner my feelings weren't hurt, it just goes to show how rude you actually are & how you view yourself full of miss-placed civic pride & self-impotrtance!
Your Grace, I'm glad that you think it ok for Royal Mail & the NHS to be publicly owned in part and to STILL exist however small..
You have expressed your view.
On 21 Oct 2015 at 1:16pm Norton Norm wrote:
I say! well a beeza was always like a fart in a colander compared to a Norton.
On 21 Oct 2015 at 1:26pm Tommy Beeza wrote:
Well said Norton Norm I've owned quite few different British Motorcycles. But aren't Norton's now made or owned by a Californian or American company?
On 21 Oct 2015 at 1:27pm Chambers Tavern wrote:
Civic Pride has Run Dry!