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On 12 Jul 2021 at 11:14am Tom Pain wrote:
This is the official agent of the EU Medicines Agency which collates data on adverse effects of new medicines. They report 17,503 dead and 1,687,527 injured, half of them seriously from the Covid "vaccine" in the EU. This seems an extraordinary large number and I wonder at what point medical experiments are curtailed for safety reasons.
On 12 Jul 2021 at 2:09pm Green Sleeves wrote:
Which vaccine did you have in the end?
On 12 Jul 2021 at 5:24pm Tom Pain wrote:
I didn't have one anywhere
On 12 Jul 2021 at 10:04pm Formerly AC-T wrote:
Have you got a link to the relevant report? @Tom Pain?
The Eudra site navigation is a bit like wading through treacle.
On 12 Jul 2021 at 11:20pm Tom Pain wrote:
I fear I don't know how to do links ACT, but I think it might be found at UK Reloaded.
On 13 Jul 2021 at 2:36pm Basil wrote:
Mr Pain: Click here to add a link Have a go.
On 14 Jul 2021 at 9:45pm Tom Pain wrote:
What would I put in it other than eudravigilance?
On 17 Jul 2021 at 1:45pm Green Sleeves wrote:
Well Tom Pain, I wish you all the best with your natural immunity strategy. I mean that, sincerely.

I caught covid earlier on in the year, pre vaccine, alpha/kent variant and it was unpleasant at best. I wouldn't wish it upon even my fiercest forum foes! I have had since, the double dose of Pfizer, and feel like it was the prudent thing to do both for myself and wider society. Maybe i'll catch the Delta variant, it seems to be on the rise, but i am more optimistic about the outcome of those that have been vaccinated compared to those that haven't. Particularly now the UK government have basically ploughed ahead with the "Herd Immunity" approach from the 19th. At least you agree with the tories on that one.

Perhaps my genes have mutated through the Pfizer vaccine. Seems unlikely, but you never know....
On 18 Jul 2021 at 12:45pm Tom Pain wrote:
Well that's it, horses for courses. A lot of my friends have had the jab, some shying at the second fence. The partner of one has been suffering severe vertigo since her second and bitterly regrets having either. I'm surprised that, having caught the flu and now being immune, you have joined in the novel vax test as an uninsured volunteer. Far from just relying on my immune system, I'm boosting it by increasing my intake of vitamin c and d and have started taking CBD hemp oil! I'm well aware how big capitalism blackwashed hemp because of the competition it posed to oil in the manufacture of plastics and medicine. If you think our pathetic excuse for a parliament is going for herd immunity I think you are mistaken. None of the parties have evinced a sign of governmen or opposition, just kow towed to the unelected, big pharma sponsored WHO and their goons of the woefully misnamed SAGE.
On 18 Jul 2021 at 3:01pm Green Sleeves wrote:
I suspect my levels of active CBD should be sufficient as is, so i wont bother supplementing that (plus, you seen the price of cbd oils?! And thats the stuff without the fun THC, which also has some additional medicinal benefits...talk about rip off?!)

Anecdotally and personally speaking, some have ended up feeling a bit rough post vaccine. But it was short-lived pain and i think on balance it was the best thing to do in the long run for both me and others i come into contact with. This is based on science that is more rigourous and robust than the stuff we read about vitamin supplement efficacy, despite the shorter time frame. No 100% conclusions from this, but i yield to the better informed experts and associated studies.

Again, please dont downplay this as "flu". While i feel more confident that any future infection i may get now i am vaccinated (on top of my earlier infection) will be hopefully milder, my first fight with covid unprotected was not easy at all. And im relatively young, and don't have any underlying health conditions. Throwing caution to the wind when it comes to a highly infectious diseases seems totally counter intuitive and senseless. Like i said before, i wish you and people around you the very best...but dont underestimate it.
On 18 Jul 2021 at 6:01pm Tom Pain wrote:
Throwing caution to the wind about an infection with a recovery rate of 99.8% is perhaps unwise. How would you describe trusting the products of a company fined $2.3 billion in 2009 for-"bribing doctors and suppressing adverse trial results" namely Pfizer.
On 19 Jul 2021 at 9:02am Green Sleeves wrote:
I totally get the notion of being skeptical, including about big pharmaceutical companies. I'm sure there have been cases of side effects from the vaccines beyond a dead arm, but 4.1m people have died from COVID since the outbreak began, despite huge efforts globally at restricting and suppressing the virus. We also have to consider that while the vast majority make a full recovery, many have lingering symptoms and we don't know the implications of so-called "long covid" yet.

The vaccines do seem to help greatly reduce the deaths and hospitalisations of previous waves when we weren't as protected. These are clearly supported by the huge numbers of infections that are occurring now to a highly vaccinated population (these haven't been "tweaked" to fit an agenda, its the same methods used to measure as before). It also limits the spread (but doesn't eliminate it) of passing it on to others. Many of the patients suffering now with the most severe symptoms of covid are those that haven't been vaccinated, or not long vaccinated (or just had 1 dose).

You seem to respond better to anecdotal evidence than broader studies....well I had COVID, and it was a lot nastier than any "flu" I ever previously had. I'm neither particularly old or unhealthy, and this knocked me for six. Of course we all know people who had it as well who it barely registered, and we know people who have sadly passed away from it. I am genuinely concerned for those people in higher risk groups that are unvaccinated. I've no association or affiliation with the tory government or big pharma, nor am I a medical expert. This is just my personal evaluation, based on what I have experienced and what I have learned from others far more qualified than I am.
On 19 Jul 2021 at 7:41pm Tom Pain wrote:
It seems that as many vaxed people catch it as non vaxed. I read loads of studies a while back but they're like opinion polls- so easy to skew. I've found the opinions of Sebastian Rushworth open minded and reliable, it's part of his job to study medical studies so he knows the game and he works in Sweden where the situation has been far less politicised. Best of luck.
On 20 Jul 2021 at 10:23am Green Sleeves wrote:
The most recent data is that 60% of those in hospital with covid right now have NOT been vaccinated. Given that 46m people have had at least one jab, its not hard to see that the vaccine is clearly working with this latest wave.

The Delta variant does seem more transmissible though, and the vaccinations are showing around an 80% drop in infections for those double jabbed. So its still possible to catch it, but where it really does help significantly is reducing the chances of that infection putting you in hospital. 96% effectiveness against hospitalisation after 2 jabs (80% after 1).

Of course Tom, you may be right in all of this, and the 80%+ of the population that will have been vaccinated against covid could all die of some weird genetic mutation, leaving only those truly woke anti-vaxxers left in the world to run the show. It would be your ideal scenario! A new world order led by Tom Pain, Piers Corbyn and a bunch of young and dumb Love Island and Towie "stars". Good luck.....
On 20 Jul 2021 at 1:46pm IDM wrote:
I am not sure that this is the place for eight (so far) long exchanges between only two posters who, it seems, will never agree with each other. Get a (private chat) room! Skype, e-mails, texts or that Victorian device allowing voice communication.
Having said that, I might as well have posted Green Sleeves's stuff myself. Deaths can be ignored (except by the families concerned) and the effectiveness of vaccines is now known from data which are nothing to do with the companies. But infection rates still need to be kept as low as possible because of long covid, which gives another route for the NHS (perhaps very slowly) to be over-whelmed.
Given the (non-) effectiveness of AstraZeneca, you won't catch me boozing all evenng in a pub squashed against maskless total strangers.
On 20 Jul 2021 at 3:38pm Tom Pain wrote:
Oh dear, greeny you just couldn't help yourself could you! You had to to drag things down to your level- love island and towie, happy viewing. Then just when I thought things had hit rock bottom, the man with many names has to turn up with yet more banal platitudes.
On 26 Jul 2021 at 10:09am Green Sleeves wrote:
TP, i wouldn't focus all that much on my little sparring jab at you about anti-vaxxers. I was just trying to make a serious topic a bit lighter.

I know you're not worried remotely about covid, I just hope it doesn't backfire on you by not having the vaccine. Maybe the gamble will pay off, but you're rather rolling the dice given how the main people now being hospitalised and suffering the more acute long covid symtoms are the unvaccinated ones. Many of whom are younger than yourself. Dying of covid isn't the only bad outcome from catching it (and that even includes those of us who have been vaccinated, as I don't want to assist the virus in further mutating).

I gather from news in US states where vaccine uptake has been slower (due to poor leadership from republican governors), there has been a sharp rise in cases, like in Florida. Even now the state governors are backtracking and urging the unvaccinated to go get it done after they see what is going on in their hospitals. Its sad how misinformation and the politicisation of it has created vaccine hesitancy, as its costing far more lives than any side-effects of a vaccine.
On 26 Jul 2021 at 12:30pm Tom Pain wrote:
Do you junkies think that anyone who doesn't shoot up the latest drug on the street is an antivaxer?
On 26 Jul 2021 at 2:22pm Green Sleeves wrote:
I'd hope you approve of some older vaccines at least, but yea, its hardly a forum secret that you are against all the covid vaccines, the very same vaccines that appear to have drastically cut deaths and serious illness (and to a lesser extent, spread of infections). Unless of course its a global conspiracy to fudge the numbers differently from a few months ago. Despite my reasonably open mind, this is a stupid theory that deserves short shrift.

I personally believe that the label of "anti-vaxxer" for you is more accurate than referring to me as a junkie. I'd prefer the term "stoner"
On 26 Jul 2021 at 11:32pm Tom Pain wrote:
I really ought to leave you hoisted by your own petard with your global conspiracies which really do deserve short shrift. Do you make them up yourself, soi disant stoner? Perhaps I will before the dreamer starts whining again, let's face it your mind is about as open as the gaol up the road.
On 29 Jul 2021 at 2:34pm Green Sleeves wrote:
You accuse me of not being able to have a sensible debate in throwing ad-hominem attacks, yet proceed to do it yourself with gay abandon!

Although you tend to just stick to obscure insults from a bygone era, and not even bother to counter the points I made about vaccine efficacy. I guess its probably easier to just avoid facing the significant mounting evidence that the vaccines are reducing deaths and serious illness, and lob in a "Pain Grenade" to conveniently end the convo. Its ok to say "it does appear they are working, maybe i was wrong on this and consider having at least one vaccine in the future". Or are we still at the whole "plandemic" stage? (not a dig, just a question)
On 30 Jul 2021 at 4:36pm Tom Pain wrote:
I may well be wrong on this but it's too early to say. The main reason for being against the Covid jabs is that they have had no long term testing, I can't see anything unreasonable about that. mRNA type vaccines have never been used on people before and I can't see the point of testing them on the entire population when the survival rate for this disease is over 99% for anyone who has no comorbidities. There's also the question of why ivermectin and chloroquin, effective remedies, have been so demonised,CQ to the extent that trials were conducted using doses in excess of the safety limit of the drug! Are the vaccines reducing the incidence of serious illness, or or is it just that respiratory disease epidemics have always petered out in this way throughout recorded history? Also they have always mutated and got more infections and less serious. I note that the American CDC is dropping the PCR test in future because it's not fit for purpose, which was so well known a year ago that even I was aware of it. It's inventor said it was useless for diagnosis, something I pointed out to howls of derision by the expert, dreamer.
On 3 Aug 2021 at 12:28pm Green Sleeves wrote:
mRNA vaccines have been trialed on humans for 10 years, its not like it was knocked up in the last year, and the trials have demonstrated their safety and efficacy. There has been a lot of misinformation floating around, some of which I've noted you have said, such as vaccines altering DNA....this is bogus information and long since debunked, but unfortunately has caused vaccine hesitancy (which is far more dangerous, especially as its a highly infectious disease).

We have tackled the "changing DNA" myth, the fact that it HAS been clinically trialed and tested on humans relatively extensively, and that it has clearly helped prevent more people going to hospital. As for your comments about chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine et al, these are quite strong medicines with side-effects - would you rather take these over a vaccine which has far more supporting evidence to show its efficacy and safety? They might have some benefits in treating hospitalised covid patients, but its certainly not a prevention, and are powerful drugs that can do more harm than good (unless you're treating malaria). A lot of these claims of miracle cures using existing drugs are peddled often by the right-wing. I sense this is a source of a lot of your information, and I would urge more caution.

As for your comment about questioning the efficacy of the vaccine, and suggesting that this could just be the virus "petering" out, I would look at who are the patients admitted to hospital and suffering the more acute effects of covid. These are overwhelmingly people who haven't been vaccinated, despite the fact that a majority of the population have been jabbed. If it wasn't effective, you would expect most people hospitalised to have already been vaccinated, but its the total opposite. In countries where the vaccine roll-out has been slower, covid is simply not petering out in the same way.
On 3 Aug 2021 at 3:54pm Tom Pain wrote:
I wonder where the mRNA vaccines were trialled for ten years. According to wiki, moderna was the first to get a license from the MRHA in December 2020, the first in the world for humans. Perhaps they've been tested on Elvis in his lunar hideaway before that. HCQ has been around for about 80 years, so I expect it's passed it's trials by now and both wings are happy with it. The thing about strong drugs is to use a smaller dose, so a rocket scientist told me. HCQ has also been used as a prophylactic against Covid and been found very successful. It could have been used to save many lives last year but the powers that be would not allow it for some reason and have been censoring information on the subject. Don't forget, the mRNA jab has only got emergency authorisation and it's human testing is ongoing.
On 3 Aug 2021 at 4:12pm Tom Pain wrote:
I forgot to mention there's a rather strident young lady on you tube called What's her face who raises some interesting questions in "rise of the variants". Enjoy.
On 3 Aug 2021 at 5:57pm Green Sleeves wrote:
mRNA vaccines have been trialed on humans since 2011, and on mice as far back as 1990. The Lancet has already confirmed in an article back in November that despite the early promise of treating covid with HCQ : "However, multiple high-quality studies subsequently showed no benefit of hydroxychloroquine use as post-exposure prophylaxis or as a COVID-19 treatment"

In conclusion, you can pop as many HCQ pills as you want, it will make no difference apart from maybe a handful of side-effects, and a possible nice benefit of reducing arthritis....

Vaccines on the other hand, appear to be highly effective in ensuring you can avoid a hospital visit or a trip to the morgue. COVID in this country is now literally only seriously impacting the unvaccinated. You know its a good thing that the elderly aren't dying in the hundreds and even thousands each day from one virus.
On 3 Aug 2021 at 10:14pm Tom Pain wrote:
Was that the study done by three or four chancers in America by any chance? The one the Lancet didn't do due diligence on? Mind you, wiki is about as reliable! They have memory holed the main inventor of mRNA vax since he expressed reservations about its use for covid. I have heard about the mice but it's the fate of the ferrets that had me running for the hills. I'm still puzzled why you got jabbed after curing yourself from the pestilence, don't you youngsters have immune systems that protect you from a second exposure? Of course you do, the prevalent victim culture that breeds negativity's to blame.
On 3 Aug 2021 at 10:33pm Green Sleeves wrote:
I got covid a while back, so thought it wouldn't do any harm to follow the science and have two pfizer jabs to make sure i don't get it or spread it again. One jab would probably have been sufficient in my case, but since they're going for free....why the hell not?!
On 4 Aug 2021 at 9:50am Tom Pain wrote:
If , as you say, most people have been jabbed, chances are that they're spreading it. Anyway, the PCR test is so flawed that the CDR is abandoning it, so all these cases may be false positives. One point of great interest to me is the COINCIDENTAL outbreak of variants just after vaccine trials in the countries where they emerged. The staggering billions in vax profits, I imagine would be quite enough to divert attention from that direction. My worry is: are there enough letters in the Greek alphabet to cover all the variants that are emerging or will we have to suffer from the cyrillic?
On 4 Aug 2021 at 10:50am Green Sleeves wrote:
Spreading it? Well not so much, this is one of the benefits of the vaccine, that it reduces the spread. You still get breakthrough cases, but they are rarer, and the symptoms are massively reduced.

If you're not going to have the vaccine, then fine, but you should at least be somewhat grateful to those around you that have, as they're protecting you as well as themselves. I don't know why you'd want to spook others into not having it. Then again, you don't really seem the gracious or humble kind...at least not in your forum persona.

I'm no fan of big-pharma, but the vaccine push globally has been worth the billions these companies will make. I'm somewhat skeptical over the claims that Astra Zeneca are doing it at cost, but even if thats the case, they will stand to benefit from good publicity of saving hundreds of thousands of lives. If they end up wiping out half the population due to DNA mutation, then I'll withdraw my present judgement.

On 5 Aug 2021 at 9:00am Tom Pain wrote:
Your view of my character defects is noted, we could all do with alittle more grace and humility. Perhaps you could point to a few examples in your posts that I may learn from your shining example. I fail to see how I am being protected by others who have been vaxed with a preparation which, according to its manufacturers, does not prevent them catching the complaint or infecting others but only lessens the symptoms. Have you thought this through? As for your specious remark about DNA, that question will have to be faced many years from now. At present the concern is with antibody dependent enhancement syndrome. I would draw your attention to the situation in Israel where over 80% of the cases are fully vaxed. It may well be that they are not real cases at all but just the unreliable PCR tests flagging up colds and flu as recent comments from the CDC suggest. That in turn suggests that the whole grisly show has been a storm in a tea cup and a vaccine an unnecessary waste of time and money.
On 5 Aug 2021 at 12:27pm Green Sleeves wrote:
Lessening the symptoms of the virus reduces the viral load and therefore spread, so yea, people who have had their vaccine are doing those who haven't a favour as well. Nothing entirely eliminates the chances of infection, but there are ways of reducing it, as well as reducing the odds of hospilisation.

Ok, well I guess I'll see in a couple of years if my DNA has been mutated, but these kinds of myths tend to be perpetuated by the same types who think there is a link between vaccines and 5g networks and that Bill Gates is the anti-christ. Fortunately for us vaccinated sheeple, 99 out of 100 of their claims are bogus. Lets just hope its not one of those 1 in a 100 "World Trade Center Building 7" moments!
On 5 Aug 2021 at 1:02pm Green Sleeves wrote:
Its worth also noting that only about 150 of the more than 18,000 COVID-19 deaths in May in the USA were fully vaccinated people. This would suggest its having a positive impact in reducing deaths...but I guess there could be some other interpretation i'm missing, and that its all a smoke-screen for something bigger and more sinister...

On a lesser statistical note, and more anecdotal and back here in the UK, a 42 year old anti-vaxxer has died of COVID. He was a healthy individual who just a month earlier had been mountain climbing. He fully believed he was strong enough to fight any infection without the help of vaccines. Apparently, just before he went on ventilation, he expressed regret at not having the vaccine, according to his sister. His sister has since received trolling from anti-vaxxers suggesting the story is made up and she is a government stooge....
On 6 Aug 2021 at 11:07am Tom Pain wrote:
At the end of last month there was an outbreak of 469 cases at Cape Cod in America. 75% were fully vaccinated and they had a HIGH VIRAL LOAD. This comes from the tinfoil hat conspiracy site The Centre for Disease Control, USA Follow the science? Or perhaps the ultra conformist, fundamentalist Covid Cult?
On 6 Aug 2021 at 12:17pm Green Sleeves wrote:
Lets delve deeper into that specific outbreak then. Out of those 469 cases in Cape Cod, in the 346 who had been fully vaccinated, just 4 were hospitalised, and no deaths. The high viral load from the new delta variant is not unexpected, and nobody said that vaccinated people would eliminate transmission, only lessen it and ultimately reduce the likelihood of severe symptoms and death.

As a double vaccinated person myself, i still wear a mask when appropriate indoors, as I understand from the science that masks prevent me from infecting others by about 80% - this simple and totally harmless approach of wearing a mask, and having a vaccine that also reduces transmission, doesn't seem like unreasonable or extreme actions.

Just 150 in 18000 of the covid deaths in america in May were vaccinated - let that statistic just sink in for one moment before you your mind wanders back off into a detour of a global government and pharmaceutical giant collaborations. Its like the good old days of that fake money spinning virus polio all over again.....
On 7 Aug 2021 at 9:07am Tom Pain wrote:
I had a bit of trouble with the last sentence: I saw "fake money" and took it that you were aware of the false nature of our currency. But no, it was just another specious, routine attempt to associate me with some dubious conspiracy theory that your quotidian mind is addicted to. And "world government", again I wondered if you had possibly read Agenda 21 from the UN, or perhaps some of the Club of Rome's publications. Faint hope! Bertrand Russell? I must be joking. I'm dealing with one of those who Zbigniew Brzezinski refers to as "relying on the media to do their thinking for them". The mask is over your mind, Stoner.
On 7 Aug 2021 at 12:57pm Green Sleeves wrote:
Classic TP....focuses on the least important aspects of my post to avoid the real substance. Then resorts to ad hominen and trivial nonsense. Very sly but way too obvious.

You are wrong again about vaccines and masks and have nothing to say other than going off on some wild tangent to try and deflect. Humility is one of the biggest signs of intelligence, not stubborness and unwilling to admit when your claims are just nonsense. Foolish pride and ego are holding you back. Maybe some herb will ground your ego a bit and you will have more clarity and confidence to acknowledge your mistakes. I know it does for me.

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