On 6 Nov 2010 at 12:52am JW wrote:
Apologies if this has posted twice, posted a while ago but cant find it.
This is the only thing that spoiled my night.
Tonight is a night for tradition and all the things that make lewes special not a time for one family to vent its blinkered views on a conviction that was made by a unbiased court of law
I am not saying whether they are guilty or not but dont feel that tonight should have been hijacked like it was.
No family is above the law even such a large one.
I usually donate to all the societys but here is one that has lost my support for good
On 6 Nov 2010 at 2:01am me wrote:
I pity the members who had to march behind that!
On 6 Nov 2010 at 8:15am A Greed wrote:
They turned up at Neville Bonfire with that banner and got told to stick it somewhere. What next Borough selling advertising space on banners shamefull.
On 6 Nov 2010 at 9:28am Burn em! wrote:
Don't know anything about the case - but definitely not the place for it.
On 6 Nov 2010 at 10:09am Big Ben wrote:
I think it was right, Martin was their President after all (and still is I think). Should they just pretend nothing has happened.
On 6 Nov 2010 at 10:48am mr happy wrote:
What did the banner say?
On 6 Nov 2010 at 11:00am Gareth wrote:
Martin and Nathan are Bonfire Boys whose business supplied events like last night. Their trial was not a fair one and this will come out soon, until then we ask you to read the website www.freethewinters.co.uk and see what injustice we are talking about. Please don't think we do not feel for the families of those who lost their lives but the fact is that they should not have been standing that close to such a dangerous site, filming the fireworks, in the first place. An accident happened and the Fire Brigade have a duty of care to their crew and should have risked assessed the site and not let people on to it. Martin and Nathan tried to get them evacuated from the site but Nathan was arrested. Why should they be in prison for this?!
On 6 Nov 2010 at 11:18am Proud Supporter_Borough wrote:
I've been reading the website that was advertised last night and I have to say to JW that it clearly was NOT an unbiased court of law. Have you never heard of a miscarriage of justice? They're not that uncommon.
And if you think that that the banners were just there to advertise, did you not notice the Borough tableau portraying the Judge and the Scapegoats?
Your night may have been spoiled but my eyes were opened. I recommend that you read the site as well: www.freethewinters.co.uk
On 6 Nov 2010 at 11:46am mr happy wrote:
I have also just read the website. I found it really informative and answered lots of questions about that day. If its all true then I feel very sympathetic towards the Winters. Having their banners last night was not wrong as if in any other society they would have in some way done the same via an enemy of bonfire or an effigy.
On 6 Nov 2010 at 12:05pm JW wrote:
Jesus, just because they were found guilty doesn't mean that the jury was biased it means that the inpartial jury found them guilty.
Where they went wrong was not telling them about what was in that container to try and save their own skins. If they had have told the fire brigade there is NO WAY that they would have stood next to it!
The winters are not evil but by not telling the brigade about it's contents they led to two deaths hence manslaughter not murder!
Unfortunately no matter how hard done by the borough/winter family think they are the fact is that a short(in comparison to other manslaughter terms) prison sentence is the only way justice could be done!
On 6 Nov 2010 at 12:47pm altogether now, ahhhhhhh wrote:
Attempting to hijack the night as some kind of march "For Justice" is just wrong. anybody want to setup a "Get the winters out of Borough before they destroy it" site? or is the damage already beyond repair?
On 6 Nov 2010 at 1:33pm Former member wrote:
Too late, the winters think they are the only people in borough! Oh apart from the brainless followers who think that noone linked to the winters could ever do anything wrong!
On 6 Nov 2010 at 7:53pm WW wrote:
bonfire girl and i think this was totally inappropriate...its completely unrelated to bonfire...
On 6 Nov 2010 at 8:19pm Bigger Ben wrote:
But they were something to do with bonfire and we remember our own.
On 6 Nov 2010 at 8:29pm ww wrote:
but bonfire shouldnt be used as a protest
On 6 Nov 2010 at 8:48pm Big Ben wrote:
But surely all of our tabs are a protest of some sort.
On 6 Nov 2010 at 9:09pm WW wrote:
agreed totally i just think, personally bringing the banners and flyers etc into the bonfire celebrations is in mistaste, simply my opinion though
On 6 Nov 2010 at 11:14pm Rightly or Wrongly wrote:
The banners were instigated by a waterloo member who tried to get them carried but was told where to go.
He then asked the Borough and they agreed. Was this a family decision or did it go before the commitee?
This has no place in bonfire. The tab, ok that's what they're for but not the banners or leaflets.
This has had the complete opposite effect and reflects badly on the society.
Yes, the Winters do have a persecution complex, but they have to ask themselves why the society has lost so many members over the years.
On the subject of the campaign, personaly I think it's a complete waste of time. With the slow pace that the legal profession moves, they'll both be out before it gets anywhere.
On 7 Nov 2010 at 8:57am Chillie123 wrote:
I totally agree that this has no place at bonfire. If the question of the Banners went before the comittee and they agreed it - then they have made the wrong decision to allow it. Bonfire is our tradition and should not be messed with.
On 7 Nov 2010 at 9:39am Bonfire Hater wrote:
Just looked at the site. It would make a good sitcom. They are in prison where they belong.
On 7 Nov 2010 at 1:46pm Bonfire girl wrote:
Bonfire was the best place to do it!!! Its not just the borough that have the winter family in it!!! You anti bonfire people need to get alife with out bonfire lewes wouldnt be on the map!!!! JW i dont think you should be speaking about what there said when you wernt there if you had sat in court you would f heard from many fireman that nathan and martin both told them what was in there and to get out they tryed to safe there lifes!!! There heros!!!!
On 7 Nov 2010 at 2:28pm JW wrote:
You are sick, calling 2 people who are inside for manslaughter heroes!
Who else in your book is a hero? Harold Shipman, fred west?
On 7 Nov 2010 at 3:34pm Burn em! wrote:
Whatever your views on the case, the point is that this sort of thing has no place at Bonfire. If this is allowed to go unchallenged, it will set a precedent whereby people with personal grievances who have sufficient influence can hijack part of this great tradition for their own ends.
It is wrong and goes against the very spirit of the celebration of the Fifth in Lewes.
On 7 Nov 2010 at 3:41pm don't care if it rains wrote:
I'm surprised there wasn't more booing. Good relations with the fire service is vital on the 5th, oh what a fantastic move!!
Its no wonder Borough appear to be smaller every year.
On 7 Nov 2010 at 4:55pm Me wrote:
keep taking the pills love. frankly you can have your deluded opinions, but how dare you attempt to hijack the 5th as some sort of crusade for the winters. It should never have been allowed
On 7 Nov 2010 at 5:07pm Petal wrote:
The Winters were/are Bonfire Boys and not only that, Martin is president of Borough. He was also one of the main suppliers of fireworks to all the bonfire societies for many years and if it wasn't for Martin the Cliffe would not have been able to put on their displays, due to the limitations of their insurance at the time. Although I do not agree with the banners and thought it would have an adverse effect, I think the 5th and the procession was very appropriate.
On 7 Nov 2010 at 5:24pm True Bonfire Person wrote:
In answer to the many questions concerning the Borough Committee- Yes it was agreed for one banner at the back of the procession and not in the ranks. This was in support of the President. However non members chose to ignore the Committee and proceeded to carry three. None of the banners were carried by Borough Members and there will be many questions that will need to be answered.
On 7 Nov 2010 at 5:33pm bang! wrote:
if the banners weren't carried by borough members, why were they allowed in the procession?!i think people need to get the stories straight as many members have been saying that they had planned all banners and flyers. Totally wrong to do this on bonfire night, you should all be ashamed
On 7 Nov 2010 at 5:39pm Bonfire girl wrote:
JW do you have a father or brother? Yes my dad is my hero and so is my brother you make me sick that you talk about something you havent got a clue about..... If any of you new my family you would no my mother family are all fireman....
On 7 Nov 2010 at 6:03pm Jw wrote:
How do you know what I do or don't know about the case?
On 7 Nov 2010 at 6:22pm Concerned Bonfire Boy wrote:
Congratulations to The Lewes Borough Bonfire Society for turning a bonfire procession into a protest march - another nail in the coffin for Bonfire. Who needs the authorities to close down Bonfire when LBBS is doing it for them! Next year I plan on walking with LBBS with my banner for bus passes for the underprivileged, cats and dogs!!!! So if you are at a loose end next 5th come along and walk with LBBS. PS bring your own banner.
On 7 Nov 2010 at 6:29pm Ye Olde Borough Member wrote:
I deeply regret and mourn the demise of The Lewes Borough Bonfire Society and can in no way celebrate the birth of the New Winter Bonfire Society. Good old Ted Over must be reeling in his grave. Lewes Bonfire Night is not the place for demonstrations or protests marches. If people feel that strongly about this matter why not protest on any other day of the week rather than hi-jacking the 5th?
On 7 Nov 2010 at 6:31pm bonfire girl wrote:
JW because if you new anything you wouldnt be talking like you are!
On 7 Nov 2010 at 6:47pm Burn em! wrote:
Bonfire girl wrote: "Bonfire was the best place to do it!!! Its not just the borough that have the winter family in it!!! You anti bonfire people need to get alife with out bonfire lewes wouldnt be on the map!!!!..."
Bonfire Girl, you are missing the point. It is people who are very much in support of Bonfire who are concerned about this. It is not what Bonfire is all about. It's too personal, to narrow an issue, too political, too divisive and could potentially be the start of a slippery slope.
Also, if what 'True Bonfire Person' says is correct, some of your supporters went against the express requirement of the Borough committee. Although, personally I don't think the committee should have allowed even one banner.
Borough need to have a full inquiry - and take on board the views of the other societies.
This sort of thing must never be allowed to happen again.
Such a shame as this year was otherwise one of the best ever (notwithstanding the terrible and unfortunate injury to the CSBS chap).
On 7 Nov 2010 at 10:15pm Borough Historian wrote:
Very, very good post 'Burn em!'. Covers the point nicely.
I might add that the orchestrator of the campaign (one of Martins brothers) was thrown out of the Borough some years ago. As mentioned above he became a Waterloo member and when they wanted nothing to do with it he approached the Borough.
As own goals go, quite spectacular.
On 7 Nov 2010 at 10:55pm Tony Soprano wrote:
Actually, he was not thrown out of the Borough. He left of his own accord after being punched by a committee member. I spoke to someone from the family today, basically they just wanted to do something that could possibly help. They were encouraged that the public response was positive. I think they would be incredibly dissappointed to hear that the same could not be said from Bonfire Boys & Girls, probably the same people that thought it was disgusting that Martin & Nathan were convicted when the Fire Brigade got off scott free.
On 7 Nov 2010 at 11:11pm Borough Historian wrote:
Incorrect Tony, he was thrown out and received a LIFE BAN. However you are correct about the punch.
On 8 Nov 2010 at 7:45am Old Lewesian wrote:
Some people have an over inflated opinion of themselves and think they are above the law (e.g. store extremely dangerous fireworks illegally). To make these men out as heroes it an utter disgrace. Family and bonfire allies will never admit the truth....
On 8 Nov 2010 at 10:10am queequeg wrote:
Several posters here assume that authority is always right and that the law never makes mistakes. Our legal system is adversarial and a law court is not about finding out the truth by enquiry, it is about winning and losing.
In this case it is all too clear that the fire brigade regarded the call to the firework factory as a bit of a jolly and had no regard for the dangers involved. Some rather large heads should have rolled in the emergency services after the accident. Instead they rallied round to shift the blame to two people who's actions and behaviour are less than perfect, but then we are all less than perfect.
Bonfire night has always highlighted local scandals and as such these events, tragic though they were, were highly suitable for the bonfire treatment.
On 8 Nov 2010 at 10:28am jonesy wrote:
Good point, QQ. So do you think G Fawkes had a fair trial before he was hung, drawn and quatered?
Maybe Borough could carry a Banner next year calling for Guido's retrial?
On 8 Nov 2010 at 10:33am Chillie 123 wrote:
In my opinion the Borough banner supporting the Winters had no place in the parade. The winters lied - had illigal fireworks - and their actions through thei lying caused the death of two people. The Winters family and their supporters are biased and bigoted. Nathan and Martin were convicted - yet they will probably be out of prison before this thread has ended.
On 8 Nov 2010 at 12:22pm teaboy wrote:
I think the problem with this issue (and this thread particularly!) is that people are trying to see it as 'black and white'. It isn't that simple. Everyone needs to admit that regulations were broken and ignored by BOTH sides and this led to the deaths. Just because the Fire Brigade were wrong it does not mean the Winters are innocent.
Bonfire has always been a place to comment on local and national issues, especially those close to Bonfire or the Society in particular. The Winters were (and are) important to Borough, and if the committee saw fit to use their night to comment, then that's up to them. If members did it independantly of the committee then again, that's for Borough to sort out.
On 8 Nov 2010 at 1:08pm Chuck wrote:
Isn't the Borough Committee, mainly Winters?