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20mph Speed Limit in Lewes - Part 2

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On 27 Jun 2012 at 1:09pm Matt Kent wrote:
Just to let you know that the 20mph Speed Limit Scheme can be viewed online via the ESCC link below. There is also a copy of the drawings in the foyer of Lewes Town Hall until the 20th July. Cheers - Matt
 
 
On 27 Jun 2012 at 1:10pm Matt Kent wrote:
Link

Check it out here »
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On 27 Jun 2012 at 1:39pm SOM wrote:
Lets face it ESCC will go ahead with the scheme no mater what we say !
Its just a big waste on time and money... but thats what the government is good at....
Wasting the tax payers money,
all the traffic calming schemes should be on hold until this country is back on its feet.
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On 27 Jun 2012 at 2:00pm Matt Kent wrote:
Given that during the comprehensive spending review ESCC road safety budgets were slashed, I for one am pleased that ESCC are committed to introducing a linked up 20mph speed limit in around Lewes and Cliffe after very many years of campaigning. It can only be a good thing - recession or not. The concern for me is how it will be policed.
 
 
On 27 Jun 2012 at 2:10pm Pete wrote:
I agree with you Matt, but how much is this costing us ?
 
 
On 27 Jun 2012 at 2:24pm Southover Queen wrote:
SOM, why on earth would "holding off on traffic calming measures" have any effect on the economic recovery?
I don't imagine it will cost all that much to implement signage, but I completely agree with Matt that the crucial question is how it will be enforced. All it needs is for the police to stand around with a hairdryer occasionally; I bet all the Clarksons on this forum would suddenly discover that driving with due regard for their surroundings then!
 
 
On 27 Jun 2012 at 2:55pm SOM wrote:
I bet it will be over a million .... waste ..... you are luck to get up to 20MPH in Lewes ,
 
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On 27 Jun 2012 at 3:55pm Cllr Sarah Osborne wrote:
If hit by a car at 30 mph, about half of pedestrians will be killed.
But if hit by a car at 20 mph, nine out of ten pedestrians will survive.
In Lewes between 2007 / 2009 78% of the RTCâ??s were in the town.
Fatal (8)
Serious (56)
Slight (263)
Total - 327
Breakdown is A27 accounts for approx 22% of all RTCs - or 78% occur around the Town.
Also it is fair to assume as the volume of traffic on our roads is likely to increases so will our accident figures, if we do not change some of the things we do.
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On 27 Jun 2012 at 4:15pm Mr Forks wrote:
I don't see why car drivers have such a problem with a 20mph speed limit. Bunch of polluting speed freaks the lot of 'em!
 
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On 27 Jun 2012 at 4:46pm Non Statto wrote:
Cllr Osbourne, where are these stats from? How many of the fatal and serious incidents were on the A27 and how many were in town? If they were all on the A27 are you going to reduce the speed limit there?
Also at 20 mph nine out of ten pedestrians will survive but will still have slight injuries so how does this help your stats?

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On 27 Jun 2012 at 4:50pm SOM wrote:
We all should stick feathers up our bums and fly ....
Why are there so many greens in Lewes...
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On 27 Jun 2012 at 5:40pm Merlin Milner wrote:
SOM the figure is nearer £5000 for the signage and will be paid for by Lewes Town Council. As someone who lives in South Street I can atest for the speed of some drivers. If most people obey the 20mph then those following who want to go faster cannot.
As a Petrolhead I feel that urban speeding is dangerous and pointless. I believe that one of the effects of the tunnel and A27 has been an increse in the town speed because there is less congestion.
 
 
On 27 Jun 2012 at 6:08pm SOM wrote:
The cost maybe 5k to do the signage but the running cost's will be much more...
The signs are just the start .. they will open a new department to deal with the fines and policing there will no doubt be camera's and guys in uniform with silly hats armed with camera's and fine notices , just like the parking hitlers we have to deal with in the town ...
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On 27 Jun 2012 at 6:36pm Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
The people who speed and fail to observe the existing 30mph limit won't suddenly change their behaviour because the limit has been reduced to 20 though. There will always be idiots, like the man in a bright red saloon car who came roaring through the bottleneck at about 7.20 last night, only to slam his anchors on before he got to St Peter's Place (obviously not bothered about the 50 pennorth of fuel he probably wasted in the process, either).
The 30mph speed limit isn't the problem, it's people driving too fast for the conditions. I fully support a 20mph limit near schools and on estates, where there are likely to be lots of children around, but I don't think it's necessary for roads like the High Street or Little East Street.
I'd be interested to know how many fatal accidents have happened in town. I remember one, where an elderly lady was killed crossing near the hospital (which is why there's a zebra crossing there now) and have a vague recollection of one happening on Offham Road by the junction with Prince Edward's Road, but I can't recall any more.
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On 27 Jun 2012 at 7:08pm Matt Kent wrote:
@ACT. As you say, there will be people who speed, but most people generally don't. And when the majority slow down, others will have to follow. We should be proud to have the beginnings of a 20mph town. Hopefully, over time, residential streets such as Malling and Landport will follow suit, especially around the approaches to schools. Don't forget to have a look at the proposals online, or in Lewes Town Hall, and give your comments.
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On 27 Jun 2012 at 7:57pm No Pot Pourri wrote:
While I think this is a good plan (even 20 is too fast down some roads), I cannot understand why accidents on the A27 have been included in the stats. Can Cllr Sarah Osborne post stats excluding A27, to give the scheme more credibility?
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On 27 Jun 2012 at 8:36pm Boris wrote:
What a load of bollocko.
Firstly it won't work, secondly, I don't care how much it costs, it's a complete waste of money at a time when there is no money and thirdly, those people who haven't been driven away from coming into the town by the over the top parking scheme will think twice before coming here again. Not only will these people have to watch for the blue meanies but now the Rozza's with speed guns. (see thread below about the precinct )
This town is being ruined by the yoghurt knitters.
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On 27 Jun 2012 at 9:26pm Mercian wrote:
ACT, I'm still completely at a loss as to why you think that anyone needs to drive over 20mph in the town centre. Are you objecting to this on the basis of efficacy and efficiency (too costly or won't work) or on principle (people should have the right to drive at more than 20mph in Lewes town centre)? The density of pedestrian activity is far higher in the town than in the estates, and the pavements far, far narrower; and moreover there are far more drivers who don't know the town well.
Boris - you can't have point one and point three. It can't both not work and deter people who would speed from coming here. You'll have to choose one of those objecitons, not both. In any case providing a pleasant environment where pedestrians, not cars , are prioritised is bound to attract more people.
If you don't like living here, there are plenty of places nearby which were, unlike Lewes, designed around the car. Look at the glories of Burgess Hill or Haywards Heath or Crawley, car-orientated places that attract tourists and shoppers in droves and are renowned around the world for it.
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On 27 Jun 2012 at 9:28pm Merlin Milner wrote:
I assume by "yoghurt knitters" you mean the Tories who run ESCC and LDC. I suggest those of you moan either stand at the next elections or contact your ward Councillors and discuss matters. At the TownCoucil we have always been against the parking scheme and tried to get things changed. Do not forget that less than about 5% of the town completed the questionaire that resulted in the daft parking scheme. Odd how much time we all spend getting Harveys back into the Lewes Arms yet are apathetic about the parking scheme.
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On 27 Jun 2012 at 10:06pm wanderer wrote:
i can see a valid point having these slow zones on residential areas but main routes its madness.
Also traffic calming on this scale will cause the emergency services to drive more erratically to get to jobs due to the members of public having to abide by slow speeds
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On 27 Jun 2012 at 11:21pm Southover Queen wrote:
Is it just me, or are the reasons that people are giving for driving too fast in town getting more and more desperate? The emergency services will be held up? Eh? Pull over, you idiot, like everyone else.

Which "main routes"? The High Street? White Hill? (Where incidentally crossing the road by the Spice Merchant is like Russian roulette) Or perhaps we should all be powering along Southover Road or De Montfort Road?

Why is it suddenly going to cost a fortune to enforce? No-one enforces the 30mph limit. There are no cameras in town as far as I know. It's about saying to drivers in town that the maximum safe speed is 20mph and expecting most to abide by it. Great. As I've said many times before, maybe they'll also realise that in the majority of roads 20mph is too fast anyway.
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On 27 Jun 2012 at 11:40pm SOM wrote:
If you all use the eye and ears you were born with then there's no need to change anything , we seem to wait to wrap everyone in cotton wool .....
We need to go back to teaching the green cross code and using common sense .
 
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On 27 Jun 2012 at 11:42pm SOM wrote:
And teaching spelling !! as i seem to have forgotten from my last post ..
 
 
On 28 Jun 2012 at 7:54am wanderer wrote:
green cross code .. wow I remember the school tours ..
Southover Queen Pulling over what in a single carriage multiply cars going slow
not as easy as it sounds.
when ppl heard sirens and see blue lights they panic and flee like rabbits with no thought for their actions..
my job I have to drive through stationary traffic and its not easy and before you jump down my throat I am authorized to do so under a clause in the highway code.
Just saying its all very well with traffic calming as long as the bigger picture is looked at
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On 28 Jun 2012 at 9:55am Spartacus wrote:
SOM - Teach everyone the GreenCross code?
I bet that will cost over a zillion quid. All those actors dressed in green cross super hero outfits going into schools, taking up class time. Printing booklets, making websites, making posters. It will cost hundreds of millions of pounds at a time when people are on the bread line.
And haven't you noticed how hard common sence is to get these days. No common sence until the country is back on its feet, I say.
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On 28 Jun 2012 at 10:35am Southover Queen wrote:
I confess I'm still wondering how improving spelling is going to help with the issues of traffic calming in a mediaeval town...
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On 28 Jun 2012 at 12:00pm Concerned wrote:
Matt and Merlin, can you explain why the zone starts opposite the Shelley's on the High Street, rather than at the traffic lights by The Black Horse? The reason is that there's a heavily used unofficial crossing between The Pelham Arms and the entrance to the County Council car park, which children use twice a day to get to the lane running beside the car park that leads to Southover and Western Road schools. Telling drivers, many who may not be familiar with Lewes, they can safely start accelerating up the hill just before this serious hazard seems like absolute madness and would be more dangerous than leaving things as they are as it could lull drivers into a false sense of security there, as well as making it harder for children to judge how quickly traffic might reach them. You can argue whether children should cross there, but the fact is they do and have done for many years. I strongly support a 20mph zone, but would have to strongly oppose the measure if this isn't changed. Is it too late for the starting point to be re-examined?
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On 28 Jun 2012 at 12:46pm Merlin Milner wrote:
I forwarded your comments to the relevant person at ESCC transport and to other Town Councillors. I will post their reply when I get it. Thanks.
I would suggest going to the foyer of the TH as Matt mentions at the beginning of the post and making this sensible suggestion.
 
 
On 28 Jun 2012 at 1:13pm Southover Queen wrote:
Excellent post, Concerned. To be honest, it sounds as if as well as keeping the limit at 20 at that spot that it would be sensible to put up a controlled crossing of some kind.

I've said before that I find it really surprising that Lewes has such a paucity of zebra and pelican crossings. They're needed near the junction of The Avenue with Offham Road and near the train station too. I'd like to see one opposite Waitrose going to the bus station too, but I expect I can whistle for that because they'll say that pedestrians should use the crossings at Phoenix Way or Boots. My answer would be try telling that to an elderly person who can see their bus at the stop when there isn't another one for ages....
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On 28 Jun 2012 at 2:16pm Merlin Milner wrote:
Could not agree more about crossings. We at the Town Council are funding ones in Malling. Otherwise one has to wait for ESCC to finish one higher up their priority list elswhere in the County. We have a budget to fund others but have to work with ESCC.
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On 28 Jun 2012 at 5:43pm Southover Queen wrote:
Thanks Merlin. I feared as much. I suppose once a child or old person is seriously injured or (god forbid) killed these issues might move up the priority list.
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On 28 Jun 2012 at 6:28pm Double Top wrote:
Or teach children...(and adults) how to cross the already SAFE roads!!! If everyone took responcibility for their own actions and actually thought about what they are doing, this wouldnt even be discussed. But no, the 'do gooders' think they know best and want to wrap the world in cotten wool.
Only yesterday I saw a lady trying to cross a road between a transit van and a lorry... With a pushchair which she'd pushed out infront of her (maybe to test if it was safe to cross).
I guess as the human race gets dumber the speed limit will come down to 10 mph.

I mean 20mph... I can run faster than that!
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On 28 Jun 2012 at 6:40pm Double Top wrote:
On Wed 27 Jun at: 15:55 Cllr Sarah Osborne wrote:
If hit by a car at 30 mph, about half of pedestrians will be killed.
But if hit by a car at 20 mph, nine out of ten pedestrians will survive.

Complete lies!!!!! from a government website....
Key statistics
You are more likely to kill a pedestrian driving at 40mph than 30mph.
Specifically, if you hit a pedestrian while driving at 20 mph, the pedestrian has a 95% chance of survival.
If you hit an adult pedestrian while driving at 30mph, the survival chance is 80%. But if you hit a pedestrian while driving at 40mph, the pedestrian's chances of dying rises to 90% (this lowers to 80% for a child).
Dont lie to try and make a point to PUSH though bu11sh1t rules on the public... just go practice fiddle some expenses as for if you ever make the big time.
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On 28 Jun 2012 at 10:52pm Southov wrote:
Double Top, are you actually an idiot or just a troll?

If there had been a safe crossing place, maybe the mother with the pushchair would have used it instead of weaving between vehicles?

How do you "teach" an elderly person with poor eyesight how to cross the road at the top of St Anne's Hill, or crossing from the Needlemakers to the police station?

I wonder how you'd feel if you did run a child over? They should have used common sense? Do you remember being a child? That's the time when you learn common sense. How dare you suggest that it's more important that you should be allowed to drive at 30mph unimpeded than a child should cross safely. You, sir, are a moron.
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On 28 Jun 2012 at 11:26pm Concerned wrote:
Merlin, thank you for that. I'll try and drop by the TH. I was going to fill out the online form, but didn't know how to answer the question of whether I approve or disapprove of the proposal, as I strongly approve of the concept but strongly disapprove of the current boundary for it. I'll also try to warn other parents I know whose children cross there about what's being planned. I've never understood why there's no controlled pedestrian crossings over the High Street between the Black Horse and the lights in front of the Tourist Office. Just seems to be one of those quirky aspects of life in Lewes. But it would be unforgivable if a proposal that is meant to make the streets safer actually makes an already dangerous situation worse.
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On 29 Jun 2012 at 2:01am Harold wrote:
Why is it that people have no respect for danger anymore, its a natural instinct to be scared of things, it what keeps us alive.Iv seen idiots walk out in front of cars and expect them to stop, guess what ... they don`t ..
When I was young I was taught by my mother not to walk on the kerb because.... Guess what,,, you can get hit by cars. It wont be long before cars all travel at 5mph and fire will be told not to burn anymore.
You adults that want protection from all the scary things in life will kill the children of the future because they will not know what danger is and how to respond to it .
And have you ever seen a child that thinks cars will stop at a crossing when sometimes they cant, I have at the E&C and hospital...
Teach our kids to be scared, teach them to respect danger, teach them to be safe and most of all let them live a life where they can feel....
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On 29 Jun 2012 at 4:54am Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
I agree about the lack of crossings - I can't believe there aren't more.
Traffic planners use some complex formula to determine whether a crossing is justified. It compares the no of pedestrians/time spent waiting to the number of vehicle movements and estimated delay to them, so that the busier the road, the less likely you are to get a crossing. Bizarre, eh?


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