Lewes Forum thread

Go on, tell 'em what you think

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thursday 16th

On 15 Jul 2009 at 11:30am river boy wrote:
homecoming parade through lewes tomorrow support the british army
On 15 Jul 2009 at 11:56am Wilhelm wrote:
Did we have a parade when the Tsunami aid workers returned?
On 15 Jul 2009 at 12:07pm bonfirek wrote:
I for one will be there tomorrow supporting our troops and i hope you lot will be as well.
And Wilhelm, what are you talking about?
On 15 Jul 2009 at 12:17pm Hotman wrote:
I won't be there - I'm against the war in Afghanistan but respect the soldiers and would never criticise them. But I'm not going to give the politicians the opportunity to pretend that respecting our soldiers is the same as supporting the war.
On 15 Jul 2009 at 12:41pm bonfirek wrote:
But it's nothing to do with the politicians, you should be there to support the troops and the dangerous job they do. After all they just follow orders and do their jobs, soldiers don't start wars, politicians do!
On 15 Jul 2009 at 12:51pm Decent Citizen wrote:
I shall be there tomorrow to cheer these brave people,and to spare a thought for those who did not make it, and their families.
On 15 Jul 2009 at 12:52pm fight wars not war wrote:
Perhaps they should stop 'just following orders"
On 15 Jul 2009 at 1:01pm bonfirek wrote:
But thats what there paid to do, follow orders. It's what most of us are paid to do in our daily jobs, we're just lucky we don't get shot at! Bloody Guardian readers! Perhaps you should have a go at the people (politicians) that give them the orders!
On 15 Jul 2009 at 1:24pm Lord Landport wrote:
I'll be there with my family doing my bit to welcome home the troops
Great Job Boys
On 15 Jul 2009 at 1:25pm Ed Can Do wrote:
I'd be there if I didn't have to work. These guys risk their lives every day and the very least they deserve is a bit of recognition for the incredible job they do when they come home. They are just following orders and aren't paid to decide if those orders are right or not. Saying they should just stop following those orders is stupid. I'm sure that lots of people working in banks think that charging someone £30 for going overdrawn is outrageous but they do it anyway because they're told to. What if someone in Tesco thought that the food was too expensive and stopped charging for it? You need a system of control in any civilisation for it to function, without that nothing would ever get done.

For most people, it'll mean a short time out of their day to support some very brave guys who are literally willing to die for the rest of us. You might not agree with the war but I'm sure that if the UK were ever invaded, you'd appreciate the soldiers following orders then, no?
On 15 Jul 2009 at 2:02pm Wilhelm wrote:
Goody Good, 'just following orders' provides a clean sheet to German WWII soldiers then? British soldiers have a choice. It's a job. Don't give me the order and defence excuse. Anyone pursuing this career knows exactly what they are doing and what purpose it serves. Yes, foreign policy is wrong. Actively supporting it is wrong too. I just wonder why Britain still lives in a blissful world in which soldiers are portrayed as more deserving heroes such as aid workers? Whilst this was certainly justified in WWII I don't quite get the point with Afghanistan. Yet people carry on the tradition as it gives a good excuse to have some cupcakes and tea, wave little flags and be jolly and all, without actually using our brains and realising that times, reasons and circumstances have changed. But let minor technicalities not spoil the fun. Let's parade and cheer them for putting their lives on the line as they didn't really have a choice. Let's applaude for blowing up Afghan families and the lot. Who cares as long as we can be British and proud.
On 15 Jul 2009 at 2:24pm Mystic Mog wrote:
If returning aid workers organised a parade, I would attend. I also hope to attend tomorrow to see the 'Tigers' parade through Lewes.
On 15 Jul 2009 at 3:22pm Sam Spam wrote:
what time will the march take place?
On 15 Jul 2009 at 3:56pm Mystic Mog wrote:
According to their flyer 12.20 till 13.15. They are starting at the Westgate
On 15 Jul 2009 at 4:31pm fight wars not war wrote:
What if Tesco workers didn't charge for the crap they sell??? What if bank workers didn't process the charges?? What if gun toting boy soldiers didn't go to war and starting thinking for themselves?? Imagine how awful the world would be ....
On 15 Jul 2009 at 5:13pm ex raf wrote:
Wilhelm you are a pratt
On 15 Jul 2009 at 6:11pm bootneck brother wrote:
Hello Wilhelm
you say you 'don't quite get the point with Afghanistan'
I agree, it seems you don't.
You say foreign policy is wrong I take it you mean Britains current stance with regard to Afghanistan.
Firstly without soldiers being there any 'aid workers' would be ineffectual, irrelevant and quite probably dead.
I'm fascinated how short peoples memories are and how easily confused.
The reason the Brits amongst many other nations are in Afghanistan is to bring Afghanistan into the world community and back from the middle ages - as the Taliban would have it. (not a long step away from a year zero - a la Pol Pot in Cambodia). Well before the invasion of Iraq, Britain and many other nations moved on Afghanistan because, (as in Somalia today) it was a failed state with no stable government that recognises international law or human rights and was controlled by the Taliban who did support terrorists, - Al Qaeda, who had launched several major murderous atrocities (remember Kenya and 9/11).
The Invasion of Iraq was a disgraceful debacle. Although I agreed at the time, that removing Saddam was a good thing, due to an acquaintance of mine having her relatives family massacred in Halabja.
This as we all now know was not the real truth behind the Illegitimate President, - son of an oil billionaire former President, with unfinished business in Iraq, persuading some of us that we should annihilate Iraq because it Supported Terrorists. This false assertion was made following the near total international support for the move into Afghanistan.
Now there are remnants of Taliban and Al Qaeda who, if we (the international community) leave Afghanistan now or soon without completing the building of a strong infrastructure, together with an effective security force, will move straight back in, have a very nasty civil war, killing possibly hundreds of thousands of civilians, and re-impose the denial of human rights to most of the population, (except them selves). - No clean water, electricity, books, education, music, Art, Sport.
The guys out there are risking their lives for our security (yours too) and that of ordinary afghans now and for the future. I fully support that, and I sincerely and respectfully hope that you now get the point with Afghanistan'.

On 15 Jul 2009 at 6:33pm Hotman wrote:
ex raf - let's hope you were never trusted with a position of responsibility in the RAF. I suppose you never realised that the freedom the troops protect includes the freedom to disagree with government policies and to question the actions of our armed forces. If we can't do that we're living in a dictatorship.
On 15 Jul 2009 at 6:54pm Hotman wrote:
ex raf - let's hope you were never trusted with a position of responsibility in the RAF. I suppose you never realised that the freedom the troops protect includes the freedom to disagree with government policies and to question the actions of our armed forces. If we can't do that we're living in a dictatorship.
On 15 Jul 2009 at 6:58pm Hotman wrote:
bootneck brother - anyone who read your official explanation of why British troops are in Afghanistan would certainly be none the wiser. You were intelligent enough to see through the lies about Iraq. It's a pity you haven't seen through the lies about Afghanistan.
On 15 Jul 2009 at 7:06pm Bootneck Brother wrote:
What lies?
On 15 Jul 2009 at 7:13pm Hotman wrote:
The first lie is the most basic one. 9/11 was not planned in Afghanistan, it was planned in Germany. Occupying Afghanistan (which is, anyway, an impossibility) will have no effect on whether there is a terrorist attack in Britain. The US and Britain to bring Afghanistan into the 20th century - the mission was to capture bin Laden. He is now known to be in Pakistan. Perhaps you should read more widely than what politicians tell you.
On 15 Jul 2009 at 7:20pm spy wrote:
oil pipeline through afghanistan?
On 15 Jul 2009 at 7:24pm Hotman wrote:
spy - you're now on to the second lie.
On 15 Jul 2009 at 7:41pm Malalai Joya wrote:

They occupied Iraq because of oil, while they occupied Afghanistan for its geopolitical location. When they have military bases in Afghanistan it makes it easier to assert control against Iran, China, Russia, etc
Bombs falling from the sky are killing our people. On the ground, the Northern Alliance and Taliban are killing our people. From both sides our people are the victims especially women and children.
If the troops withdraw, then it is easier fight with one enemy. Now we are fighting with two enemies: occupation forces and these criminals.
Malalai Joya is an afghani pro-democracy activist.
On 15 Jul 2009 at 7:44pm Hotman wrote:
Anything to add to what Malalai Joya says Bootneck Brother?
On 15 Jul 2009 at 7:52pm Bootneck Brother wrote:
Hi Hottmann
My explanation of why we're in Afghanistan is not 'official' It's how I see it.
Where the 9/11 attack was 'planned' is not very relevent,
some people think Israel did it to drag the U.S. into the middle east conflict.
Afghanistan was the base and training ground for Al Qaeda (the Base) supported by the Taliban.
Occupying Afghanistan is not the objective, making sure the Taliban and Al Qaeda are finished is.
and I believe disrupting Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan has substantially diminished their effectiveness, If we hadn't have done it, I believe there would have been many more attrocities.
As far as the mission was to 'capture Bin Laden' - to do that required Al qaeda and the Taliban to be dealt with. (See 'capture Saddam')
I do read quite widely, last I heard of Bin Laden he was shooting ping-pong balls across a bar in bangkok.
On 15 Jul 2009 at 8:09pm Malalai Joya wrote:
May 4 US air-strike in Farah province. -The mainstream media wants to throw dust in the eyes of the world. Over 150 people were killed. I spoke to a young woman who lost 20 members of her own family.
This was a massacre. I was banned from giving a press conference. But the US government and media said only 20 were killed.
On 15 Jul 2009 at 8:11pm fight wars not war wrote:
by 'attrocities', Bootneck brother, I assume you mean over here!
On 15 Jul 2009 at 9:05pm wilhelm supporter wrote:
Who do you think you are ex raf calling wilhelm a pratt, he has an opinion,as as do all of us, and just because his doesn't fall into line with yours doesn't mean you can be so damning. Soldiers KNOW exactly what they are getting involved in and it is THEIR choice, that is not to say that they don't deserve our respect for what they do.
On 15 Jul 2009 at 9:39pm The Tooth Fairy wrote:
All the freedoms you enjoy are all due to our armed forces. What do you think kept the Soviet Union at bay for 40 years? If you want peace then you must prepare for war, simple as that. If you have to go to war, then make sure you win, regardless of cost.
On 15 Jul 2009 at 9:55pm If you... wrote:
believed in conspiracy theories you might change your opinions about these wars, if you watched 9/11 the truth they reckon the Americans themselves were responsible for that atrocity so that they would get the worlds backing to go fight their wars that they so love!!!
On 15 Jul 2009 at 10:17pm Also... wrote:
Loose change is another DVD that is worth watching... makes you think!
On 15 Jul 2009 at 11:10pm Lopster wrote:
wasn't THAT long ago that we were hassling the Russians to get out of Afghanistan - so that we could move in?
On 16 Jul 2009 at 2:20am Wilhelm wrote:
To come back to the point of the discussion: Today's Parade. Thank you ex raf and bootneck brother for your views. Don't get me wrong. I don't expect no different especially from ex raf as my words more or less take the meaning out of the purpose she/he served and can handle a pratt. But allow me to share this with you: My grandad whom I never met went back to the Russian front two or three months before Germany's capitulation. My grandma begged him to stay as the war was lost and over but he was 'ordered' or else pay with his life. Needless to say he paid with it anyway and was never found which left a mark on my dad and me by never knowing my grandad. Before you judge, he was a simple man from a very small village in Southern Bavaria, enjoying caring for horses and donkeys and not at all interested in the policies of the time. Today's soldiers (at least in this country) have a choice and consciousness and pursue it as a career or because of need as there's a lack of opportunities. The choice I was given was up to five years in jail or a monetary fine until I'm 32 if I should ever want to go back home because I left the Federal Republik of Germany without permission just because I do have principles and found it inappropiate to be part of the defence system - direct or indirect - as of its history. You have all of my gratitude for your bravery and deepest symphaty for the losses you occured in WWI/ WWII as otherwise, without you, the World would look quite different perhaps. However the situation with let's take Iraq, Afghanistan or even N. Ireland are quite different in that respect. Quite frankly, flame me for that, I have no idea what any of these is your business? It's all about imposing your values and interests on others - much different to WWII. I'm sure your opinion differs but I don't think that being a tool whom imposes government policy and forces believes on a well established culture makes a soldier a hero worth to be proud to celebrate? Of course there's the argument of barbaric states and democracy. But you see, I quite don't get that. They didn't invent chopping off hands just yesterday but it developed over a substantial period for a very good reason. Whether you are happy with it lies in the eye of the beholder. I tend to tolerate as there are many things which are of grave concern in our so called democratic and perhaps overzealous 'forward thinking' country which are very questionable and indeed scary. You get the idea. It's a shame people on both sides lost lifes and I feel with whomever has incurred a loss. I don't see a reason to be all cheery about it as there is a choice, especially in this country and day of age, and people should question their actions and conciousness. And before you bring it up: I think the world would be a much better, stable and happier place if countries like Iraq and Afghanistan had never been invaded.
On 16 Jul 2009 at 6:54am private parts wrote:
I was in Iraq in 2003 - 6 days notice for mobilisation (I'm TA) and away. We always thought we'd take the place of Regulars when they went to Iraq/wherever but not any more.
Life was tough, crap food, lack of equipment, on-the-bus-off-the-bus, hot, dusty, unfriendly, dangerous. Whilst I didn't necesserily believe in the cause I was there because my country wanted me there. I saw some terrible things and I even met some nice Iraqis. When I got home we were shown a 'thank you very much video' and pushed out the door.
Luckily things have changed although, conversly, more soldiers are now dying. Get yourselves out today and cheer those soldiers on. It's because of the likes of them that you can chat freely on these forums, wear vegetarion shoes and read the Guarniad. See you there!!!
On 16 Jul 2009 at 8:32am bonfirek wrote:
See you there private parts and others. And to all those communists and Guardian readers above, don't forget who fought for your right to free speech!
On 16 Jul 2009 at 9:17am Lord Landport wrote:
Right Or Wrong ?
Im still going, any ideas on best place to stand to watch?
On 16 Jul 2009 at 9:23am sashimi wrote:
Those of us who are opposed to the pointless war in Afghanistan should support and respect the brave men and women who are risking their lives by doing their duty. Let's boot out the politicians another time. Today's the day for showing solidarity with the forces.
I notice that the event has been advertised with a poster on the Town Council's little used website. If there is a decent crowd, it will be down to word of mouth rather than enthusiastic and competent promotion by the Council.
On 16 Jul 2009 at 9:45am Mr T wrote:
bet the parking wardens are having a field day down the high street!!
On 16 Jul 2009 at 11:39am Fighting Talk wrote:
Sadly countries need armies as even Wilhelm, (who appears to be saying he would support a Taliban government if I read his post correctly), agrees there have been justified wars in the past. And armies need soldiers who will do as ordered, whatever their personal beliefs, because otherwise they can't function. Everyone loves a good conspiracy theory, but as Bootleg says, almost nobody opposed the war in Afghanistan when it started, and the tragedy is that the US took its eyes off Afghanistan to fight the disastrous war in Iraq, allowing the Taliban to rebuild their presence there. You may disagree, but the men and women serving there believe they are doing good for both Britain, and the Afghans themselves. Oppose the war as strongly as you want, but attacking the troops who have served over there, like some people here are doing is, in my personal opinion, shameful.
On 16 Jul 2009 at 12:48pm what the f**K ?? wrote:
Everyone on here seems to be argeuing with ammunition from what they have read in papers/seen on news etc ! It doesnt matter what youve read or who you know. What the f**k are we doing interfering half way round the world in other peoples business. Both my grandfathers served in the war and for a very good cause and until our shores are threatened again (in which case i will be one of the first to offer my services) Then i will not support in any way anything to do with the armed forces. Brave as they may be, and stupid they certainly are, they chose to join the army and were not forced to do so ! It is an outrage that this has been forced upon our town with no consultation and from what i saw at around 12.00 pm the only people out to cheer them on are their own families, a few old farts too young to have seen WW2 action (looks like they collect helmets and memorabilia) and bemused shoppers. On top of this they have the gaul to haul in a recruitment trailer to show kids a few guns and try to get them to join up ! F*****g Outrage !! Where do i complain ??????
On 16 Jul 2009 at 1:27pm Ed Can Do wrote:
I don't remember any consultation about the Lewes Carnival, or the Boot Nail dance thing, or the kids parade that's coming up but you know what, if you don't agree with something then don't go. My girlfriend stopped work briefly to go and watch and says there were a load of people there giving their support. Is it really that much of an inconvenience to you to have the high street shut off for an hour or so in the middle of the day?

Regarding the earlier comments, it might not be so bad if bank workers stopped applying charges or if Tesco employees stopped charging for goods but what if the Police decided to stop arresting people for murder or if Ambulance people decided they didn't want to visit certain streets?

Yes, service men and women these days know what they're getting themselves into but I fail to see how that makes their commitment any less worthy or why we shouldn't support the work they do. I personally believe that the British military presence in Afganistan is making life better for the vast majority of the people there and the few people I know who are in the forces and have served or are serving there say the same. Everyone's entitled to an opinion of course but I really don't see how it harms anyone to go and stand by the street and show some gratitude to the people who are willing to die in service of their country.

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I like BONFIRE NIGHT, and of course all the out-meetings which go on around this time - and the loud bang at the crack of dawn!