On 3 Nov 2017 at 1:44pm Mr sensitive wrote:
Zulus with blacked up faces have been part of Lewes bonfire for generations. So why, all of a sudden, have people started getting arsey over it. I didn't hear this last year, or the before....what about 5 years ago? or 10? As a kid, i don't remember anyone getting offended in the 70's.....so why this year?
On 3 Nov 2017 at 1:47pm Bruvver wrote:
In the 70s the national front where a force even brought it to lewes town hall what a night and god bless Betty web our leader of that time
On 3 Nov 2017 at 1:58pm why not? wrote:
Nothing stays the same. It was considered ok, once upon a time, for old men to marry 14 year olds in this country. Once upon a time, smoking was encouraged, now it's understood as a major health risk. Eventually, mindsets evolve, cultures evolve, education evolves, and what may have been appropriate before no longer is. If everything was already perfect in the world - and therefore nothing should happen unless it has already happened - then there would be no change. No-one is above self-review, no-one is above a reassessment of the status quo. Why now, why not? Why did anything evolve when it did, rather than sooner, or later?
On 3 Nov 2017 at 2:22pm endoftheouse wrote:
The "No Popery" Banner will be next on the offensive list of the Lefty White Poppy brigade. They have placed themselves in Schools,Collages,Universities,NHS and throughout the Council Departments/Bodies and will continue to force their snowflake ideology on to everyone or punish those who oppose their views. I've had enough of this and tomorrow I will be waving a Union Flag around Lewes as I know how much the Left despise our Great Nation and urge all those attending Saturday who love our Town and Country to fly the flag during the parades and support all the Bonfire Societies traditions.
On 3 Nov 2017 at 2:40pm Why not indeed wrote:
Nothing stays the same - particularly Lewes house prices.
On 3 Nov 2017 at 3:01pm It'sTime wrote:
Do a google search. People have been complaining about blacking up for years, but they have not been listened to. I've found numerous articles and posts going back to 2010 at least.
On 3 Nov 2017 at 3:19pm Mr sensitive wrote:
But what about 2009 or 08 or 1998 etc etc
On 3 Nov 2017 at 3:22pm Weird wrote:
I don't understand why people are getting so upset about this. It is essentially how freedom of expression is supposed to work. If people want to dress up as 'Zulu warriors', they can. Equally, others should be free to criticise them (strongly) for doing so and to ask them to change their behaviour. It is ok to have an honest difference of opinion and a healthy debate.
On 3 Nov 2017 at 3:39pm Just a thought wrote:
Can they not wear black masks, would that not be acceptable?
On 3 Nov 2017 at 3:46pm LegofLamb wrote:
I'm a flaky left wing socialist but I take no offence at the bonfire Zulus. There is absolutely no racism involved in wearing these costumes, if anything it is in tribute to the Zulus. Great care is taken over making and mending these costumes each year. I am surmising but I imagine they were originally chosen as being a bright & spectacular costume. It is a shame that there are so few of them now as the costumes take a lot to make & maintain. The sight of the Zulus walking down School Hill is a childhood memory I will always cherish (I was 6 when I first attended).
On 3 Nov 2017 at 4:06pm Well doh... wrote:
Because they tried to normalise it by inviting Zulu dancers this year.
The real question should be why wasn't it stopped 30 years ago, or maybe ask why they thought it was ok to dress like this?
On 3 Nov 2017 at 4:35pm atendoftheouse wrote:
And a pith helmet eh,old chap? Maybe a rattan cane to beat the dirty lefty buggers, what? Wouldn't have happened in Victoria's day would it?
Im with you and not standing for it! Oh soddit, i've tripped over my catheter bag again...
Lets paint the World pink again and get those lefties & natives back in line!! God Save The King!!
On 3 Nov 2017 at 4:37pm Tinkler wrote:
The idea of celebrating an especially aggressive tribe that collaborated with imperialism and murdered and enslaved other tribes by invading their territory seems odd to me.
The Zulus continued to cooperate with the apartheid regime and suppressed the independence of other tribes.
But.....they had a snazzy look....
On 3 Nov 2017 at 4:48pm Yes! wrote:
A great victory for common sense and decency and a massive climbdown by the bonfire society. Another huge nail in the coffin of bonfire. The immovable object is weakening. The end might not be that far away after all.
On 3 Nov 2017 at 5:51pm nige the baker wrote:
i blame all the f***ing dfl's to be honest. always casuing a stir trying to distupt our tradtitions!
On 3 Nov 2017 at 7:38pm @nige the baker wrote:
Change the record. Talk about snowflake lefties, what about the nostalgic little snowflake traditionalists crying into their Zulu costumes and blaming everything that doesn't go their way on that useful catchall, the DFL. Your tradition sucked and was outdated. Now it's gone. Boohoo. Oh look, seems as though you WILL be druv after all
On 3 Nov 2017 at 7:46pm Saddened wrote:
A completely harmless practise has had an offensive issue attached to it by the uneducated. The same uneducated that donít understand what the burning crosses represent (the 17 Lewes martyrs) and donít understand that we are not anti Catholic and that it is not Ďtheí Pope that is being burned (it is a very specific one, Paul V, who was pope at the time, and in whose name the gunpowder plot was (almost) carried out). Meanwhile Iím sure none of these people have a problem with families and organisations across the country who all quite happily consign a Catholic figure to the flames themselves when they burn an effigy of Guy Fawkes. Itís a sad day when these people Ďwiní as they think they have today. Nobody wins, all that happens is the country loses another bit of its heritage. (Bits in brackets are for the benefit of the uneducated)
On 3 Nov 2017 at 8:58pm sad wrote:
FYI the burning of the crosses and the history behind it is very important and completely unrelated to painting your face black with shoe polish.
Maybe read some of the history of the societys rather than tar all of us in bonfire with your ignorant brush.
In fact, painting your face black as a costume is a very new and negative part of 'heritage'. Nothing to do with bonfire.
As the zulu dance troupe leader pointed out, the outfits and dress were disrespectful to the zulus.
(history of bonfire and painting face with boot polish are not linked)
Bits in brackets for thick turds
On 3 Nov 2017 at 9:17pm Hahahaha wrote:
And this weeks prize for spectacularly missing the point, goes to...........Sad!
On 3 Nov 2017 at 9:18pm ishola wrote:
I wept when I heard that the 'Zulu' group had changed their opinion after seeing the true situation. As a Lewesian born and bred, although not living in the town at present, but with resident relatives and as a mixed race person born in 1960, I rejoice that sense begins to prevail. As a child I was involved in bonfire and always felt a frisson when I saw the Zulus. But my frisson was not just of awe at the majestic sight of those awesome costumes but also of mortification at the humiliation of being identified with such an obvious and ignorant caricature of a human being. As I watched the current debate unfold, it brought back those feelings of fear, of being mocked and being subjected to unwarranted racial abuse, in which I may well have even joined in. How shocking that it has taken to 2017 to call in actual Zulus ... I have to commend and salute each and every BBS member who chooses to dress as a Zulu without the offence of 'blacking up' tomorrow. Your costumes are awesome and a spectacle like no other. Now please listen to black people for, in so doing, you will enhance, enrich and embed that Lewes tradition with pride and honour. Thank you. Also, may I just say that one can hold racist views, attitudes and opinions ( as I have done in the past) without being a racist. Whenever I have realised that I have held racist (or sexist or anything else-ist) views, I have sought to unpick them and redress them. For me, that is being honest and authentic. I do know that many are uncomfortable with that idea and I have lost friends over it. But I stand by it. Institutional racism (and sexism etc) remains rife and must be challenged when found. to me, that is a mark of civilisation. Tradition and culture are made by people, therefore, subject to change. I could go on ....
On 3 Nov 2017 at 9:29pm sad wrote:
was responding to the post above mine made by Saddened. He equated burning crosses with blackface and Zulu dress (that offended the Zulus they invited)
bonfire is a great tradition that we can support without all this drama. i was well over the top just now and am sorry but i've got sick of all the chat about how 'all of bonfire' and it's traditions are being attacked by this one reasonable change
On 3 Nov 2017 at 10:26pm @ @nige the baker wrote:
offended the dfls. idiot grow up. tosser.
On 4 Nov 2017 at 7:38am Mr D wrote:
I think the last word should go to the Zulu guy, the actual Zulu. When his initial response was that it was fine I thought, well OK I think they look like a bunch of t***s from the 1950s but alright, if he's cool with it. Then he saw the pictures..
On 4 Nov 2017 at 8:28am Saddened wrote:
@Sad. Sorry, but you are wrong. My post was a response to other people (Not me) jumping on the Ďracistí band waggon by comparing these things to Zulus blacking up as they have done on here and on other social media.
The explanations Iím brackets for the uneducated were directed at these people, not the Bonfire community, obviously. Just read it again!
Now what were you saying about thick turds?
On 4 Nov 2017 at 1:54pm Marcus wrote:
I personally lived in Lewes for my first 30 years until when trying to buy a property moved me further away. What evidence is there to suggest that the Zulu dressing members of the bonfire brigade (or the bonfire associations generally) are racist in any way rather than celebrating the evening in a manner that has been traditional to Lewes for nearly 100 years, dressing as members of other cultures or celebrating periods in time from our own history in what they believe are traditional attire? There has never been any racial connections with any of it, yes some of the tableauís have been a tongue in cheek dig at various people, but this seems to have gotten out of hand. The articles around the Zulu dance brigade states nothing of them objecting to the blackening up of peoples faces, but the objection to some of the items on the costumes (skulls and bones), which is something that can easily be changed. I would be very interested to see how many of the 1500 signatures on the petition were people who live or have lives in Lewes, rather than people from outside the town who donít know the towns history or tradition, at this rate along with the white poppies, this country will loose all its history and culture with younger generations.
On 4 Nov 2017 at 8:14pm Actually wrote:
Actually the Zulu statement in the article was quite specific about blacking up. He suggested using other colours that weren't signifier of skin colour would be more appropriate.
Your quote, Marcus:
It "has been traditional to Lewes for nearly 100 years" to dress "as members of other cultures or celebrating periods in time from our own history in what they believe are traditional attire".
I'm just not sure how traditional attire is blacking up. I mean, did Zulu's black up? No, because that's their skin colour, they didn't put it on especially. It's not attire.
On 4 Nov 2017 at 9:41pm ?? wrote:
Are you from Lewes originally or like so many, somebody who has moved into the town - just out of curiosity?
Marcusís comment is merely explaining the history of the town and pointing out that it is not a racist event, yet you ignored this and clung to the blackening up of skin, if as suggested in the Zulu statement they coloured their skin yellow or brown would this be seen as an acceptable compromise, or another racial slur in respect of Indian or Asian descendants? I would like you to answer if you are originally from Lewes?
On 4 Nov 2017 at 11:01pm Actually wrote:
Nope, not originally from Lewes. Not a 'Londoner' either. Just, you know, educated and aware of the difference between clothing and skin colour. To say "there has never been any racial connection" to blacking up and then only mentioning the 'tradition' of attire suggests that blackface isn't even necessary anyway. So get over it. Get over your sour grapes!
On 5 Nov 2017 at 9:59am Well wrote:
The new style (and fully approved by real Zulus) face paint didnít look very different to me. So where are these sour grapes that you speak of?