On 22 May 2014 at 1:39am Innocent Bystander wrote:
Itís 1.30am and Iíve been reading your posts to try and gain some divine inspiration on who to vote for later today. Needless to say Iím bitterly disappointed.
The thing is that not voting at all would be an inhuman affront to the millions who have died in the cause of bringing democracy to Europe. However, the link below takes you to the official list of candidates for the south-east region, but this is not terribly enlightening. During the ďcampaignĒ I have received just three leaflets through my door which have been purely party propaganda for Tory, Labour and LibDem.
I want to know about policies, proposed legislation and the direction of travel, but this kind of info doesnít seem to be on the agenda. Why should it be? This is all about politics.
If we are not part of Europe do we belong with the Commonwealth remnants who now identify with south-east Asia on the other side of the globe? If we are not part of Europe do we belong with the USA 3,000 miles away? If we are not part of Europe do we belong with Scotland? If we are not part of Europe then we must be a tiny island in the Atlantic off the north coast of the European mainland.
Please tell me, who should I vote for?
Check it out here »
On 22 May 2014 at 5:04am Ukip supporter wrote:
Dear Innocent Bystander ( and anyone else in doubt..)
You should, like millions of your fellow voters, vote Ukip today.
The clue as to why lies in your own sentence about the millions who 'have died in the cause of bringing democracy to Europe'.
Because the European Union, and the three Westminster parties who back it, is an affront and a betrayal of democracy.
We are, of course, part of Europe, but the EU is an artificial project foisted on to the continent by a small clique of Eurocrats who hold the people of they rule in complete contempt.
Ukip are not 'little Englanders' : we want to reconnect with the world, and not be locked into this declining, fearful fortress Europe which has ruined the southern half of the continent with the introduction of the Euro. (eg. 50% of young Spaniards are without work).
The question in this hugely important election is a simple one: do you wish Britain to remain a (relatively) free, independent nation, trading with the whole world, and electing its own lawmakers to our own Parliament.
Or do you wish to become part of a post-democratic, unelected
single state owing everything to Europe's sad Communist, Fascist and corporate part - a state in which this country will have less power than a county council governed by colourless bureaucrats like Barroso, Rumpy-Pumpy, Schulz, Reding and Ashton ( You haven't heard of them? But they are going to rule your lives!).
Today will be the beginning of the process of winning our country back. And we are not alone: the anti-EU movement is spreading right across the continent.
So vote Ukip with joy in your heart; administer a swift kick to LibLabCon and help liberate us and restore our freedom.
On 22 May 2014 at 5:59am Mr Sensible wrote:
As demonstrated in a previous thread Europe is far more democracratic than the UK. Also it is obvious to see that UKIP is full to the brim with loons and that UKIPs policies are for the benefit of the rich (even more so than the Tories); flat rate of tax, privatisation of the National Health, deregulation for large business, removal of safeguards etc.
If its policies you as interested in, rather than personalities, then use one of the web sites to work out which party will work for you:
Check it out here »
On 22 May 2014 at 6:04am Mr Sensible wrote:
And another web site where you can find out which party would best represent your interests in Europe. It's probably a bit easier to use than the one in the previous post.
Check it out here »
On 22 May 2014 at 6:46am Phfellow2004 wrote:
Labour and Libdems will not give you an In/Out Vote
UKIP want to get out of Europe and end it.
Cons want to give you an In/Out Vote and meanwhile mend it.
On 22 May 2014 at 8:14am Ukip supporter wrote:
Mr Sensible is such an assiduous apologist for the corrupt dungheap that is the EU that I am beginning to think that he is one of the 10,000 EU civil servants who, it is reported today, earn more than the Prime MInister. (Paid out of your taxes, natch....)
The AVERAGE salary of an EU civil servant is £300,000 PA ( tax free).
The misnamed Sensible suggests that he 'demonstrated' that the EU was more democratic than Britain ( hollow laughter).
Here are a few reasons why it is not:
The so-called EU Parliament whose members people are voting for today lacks the basic power of any Parliament: the ability to initiate and if necessary overturn laws. The laws are made by the aforesaid unelected bureaucrats of the EU commission and the Parliament merely rubber stamps them. If that's democracy I am a banana.
The EU has passed a host of unnecessary legislation, now amounting to an amazing 150,000 tightly typed pages, ranging from the famous bent bananas to installing tracking devices in every new car so that our masters know where we are at all times. If this Orwellian nightmare is Sensible's idea of democracy it is not mine.
The EU is doomed, increasingly unpopular, and the only gainers of this elections throughout Europe will be the Eurosceptic parties who want to bring it crashing down.
All parties except Ukip ( including the Greens) are pro-EU, pro-dictatorship, and pro constructing a single federal state and taking power from the people. The Greens ( and Labour) used to be anti-EU, ( eg. Tony Benn) but they got corrupted ( eg. the entire Kinnock family whose generous pay and pensions you are paying for).
Take power back today by voting for the only party pledged to bring the whole stinking edifice crashing down in flames: Ukip.
OK, I am sure that in Lewes only a minority will agree with me but outside this privileged and blind little bubble big changes are underway: starting with Ukip topping this poll. Explain that away if you can, you lentil munchers.
It is telling that the two tellers outside the polling station where I have just proudly voted for freedom and democracy were from the two parties who will come bottom in this election : a beardie weirdy from the Greens (Slogan : 'Forward to the Stone Age!') and a nice Liberal Democrat lady.
(Slogan: 'Let's bomb Syria and double tuition fees!').
AS ever, dear old Lewes is out of step with the rest of the country ( all except the Green Planet aka Brighton of course).
On 22 May 2014 at 8:15am Gerty wrote:
And of course the inconvenient truth the media ignore because it's less entertainment is that the Greens are beating the Lib Dems in European polls and are level with UKIP.
On 22 May 2014 at 8:29am Undecided wrote:
I have deep reservations about the EU and current immigration levels and considered voting for UKIP as a protest vote to give the main parties a kick up the backside, but their party contains too many unsavoury characters with unpleasant views, hiding behind Mr Farage's amiable, Clarksonesque exterior. The racist tweets and Donna Edmunds' Ayn Rand poster (in the background on one of her videos) have made my mind up.
On 22 May 2014 at 8:33am ukip supporter wrote:
Gerty:....erm....which polls would they be that you quote?
In the last two polls before voting the Greens were some 20 points behind Ukip ( who were way in the lead).
YouGov certainly have the Greens beating the LIbDems: but by 9% -6%
Optimium have both of them level pegging on 6% !!
Both polls have UKIP leading at 27-32%. Check out the Guido Fawkes website for the full figures.
You need to put less wacky baccy in that organic clay pipe of yours love..its making you completely delusional!
On 22 May 2014 at 8:52am Napoleon XIV wrote:
UKIP have already eliminated themselves from my candidate list as their members (Farrage, Edmunds, Atkinson) are barking!
On 22 May 2014 at 8:59am Gerty wrote:
Ah, love the insult to reinforce an argument. How about "You're mistaken". Typing too quick, you're right I was mistaken - Greens are level or beating UKIP in number of MEPs (2 of whom are from the UK I think, one from our area). Well done though, fitting the UKIP stereotype nicely. Personally, I like the UK too much to vote UKIP, but you obviously think very differently.
On 22 May 2014 at 9:27am Enry wrote:
It would appear that Donna is not up to the job:
Check it out here »
On 22 May 2014 at 9:30am voter wrote:
Poll predictions are completely irrelevant. They do not make UKIP less xenophobic, less racist, less homophobic, or less abhorrent. No party is impressing with it's brilliance, but at least Conservatives, Labour, Lib Dem and Green are reasonably tolerant and sensible.
On 22 May 2014 at 9:41am Agog wrote:
Thanks enry. The woman is so vile, that she doesn't even understand that the reason she needs to go to equalities training is made clear by her explanation of why she thinks she doesn't need to. She thinks Nazi's should not suffer from discrimination by Jews.. You could not make it up.
On 22 May 2014 at 9:55am Innocent Bystander wrote:
Hello UKIP Supporter, and thank you for your advice. I was impressed by the passion of your 5.04am post but by 8.14am it appears you were stepping over the boundary between passion and abuse. Mr Sensible linked a really helpful site which does make a lot of sense out of today's electoral mire.
I see that on Sun 13 Jan at 5:35pm Cllr Donna Edmunds wrote on the Lewes Forum: "I'm now Independent, with no plans to join UKIP." Perhaps UKIP isn't the vote for me today. How would I know what I'm getting?
On 22 May 2014 at 10:04am someone else wrote:
Once again: a vote for UKIP is a wasted vote. UKIP are incapable of removing the UK from the EU or impacting on immigration because they are both matters which can only be changed at Westminster. Their representatives have failed to represent British interests because they abstain or simply vote to block any legislation, good or bad. I'm voting Green because Keith Taylor, from Brighton, has been a responsible, diligent, hardworking MEP (unlike the expenses scrounging imbecile Farage) and deserves to keep his seat.
On 22 May 2014 at 10:15am Innocent Bystander wrote:
Presumably Donna's trying for election today because she knows she stands no chance of getting back on LDC courtesy of Barcombe and Hamsey voters. When is the next district council election?
The UK has 73 out of the 751 seats in the European Parliament. At present UKIP holds 9 out of these 73 seats. Therefore plenty of opportunity in Brussels for her and her party colleagues, for what they all would see, presumably, as a promotion in their political careers.
It really is a supreme irony that UKIP politicians seek to make a good living out of the organisation they despise. In what other walk of life would this be the case?
On 22 May 2014 at 11:25am Ukip supporter wrote:
Innocent bystander: so you are not so innocent after all, as your last post abandons your 'undecided pose' and reveals you as a Europhile. Well, who'd have thought it?
To answer your question though: the UKIP gleefully takes all the cash that it can from the EU to facilitate the wonderful work of destroying it.
A Ukip MEP ( of which there are going to be a whole lot more after today) put it rather well to me: he called it 'Taking Satan's money to do God's work'
Since the EU itself is a completely corrupt and criminal organisation whose accounts have not been signed off by its own accountants for more than 15 years, we should have no qualms about taking their ill-gotten cash. After all, they have no qualms about taking ours.
If the EU were a business the Fraud Squad would have been called in years ago, and Barroso & Co would be sharing a cell with Bernie Madoff.
On 22 May 2014 at 11:28am belladonna wrote:
Just voted. What is astonishing is the number of seemingly anti-EU , extreme right wing or libertarian parties standing in the south east constituency. Very very worrying.
Yet I've only had two election leaflets through our door - one LibDem and one Green. No one else it seems can be bothered. (Has our own local Lewes UKIP candidate (Nigel Jones) even bothered to campaign in his own town ? Not that I've noticed.)
How can any of these smaller independent parties expect to gain votes if no one campaigns or even lets the local populace know what their policy proposals are.
UKIP will undoubtably do well in the EU election. But the 'anti-Farage and his ilk' movement is building and I hope/doubt when it comes to the general election they will muster an MP. (Although east kent / Thanet seems the most likely place Farage will stand and possibly win).
By the way - where do they stand on Scottish independence ?
and what are their ideas on the NHS ? Anyone ever seen any current UK policy proposals from them ?
On 22 May 2014 at 11:36am Interested wrote:
UKIP Supporter. You are clearly very angry. Please calm down.
Now that you have calmed down, please tell me why I should vote for a party whose candidate (Donna Edmunds) thinks that Neo Nazi's should have the right to discriminate against Jews.
I would also ask something about Nigel Jones, but unless that is you, I have no idea what he thinks, good or bad, because he has done absolutely nothing to promote his views about the EU to me. Why should he get paid for that?
Oh, and somebody asked about the EU's stupid laws about bent banabas and straight cucumbers. what do you think about silly laws like that?
On 22 May 2014 at 11:42am Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
I agree, Bystander. Even if I supported UKIP's policies, I couldn't countenance voting for people who don't turn up to the body they're elected to while happily trousering tens of thousands in allowances.
UKIP is all about big business while professing to be for everyman and protecting beloved Albion from waves of foreigners. If they really stood for ordinary working people, they would not have policies that included abolishing employment protection rights and flat rate taxation, which would increase the burden of taxes on anyone on an average income or less.
A Labour vote is a wasted vote here and they're Tory Lite these days anyway. I can't countenance voting LD since the opportunists shacked up with the Tories and forgot how to spell "principle", never mind the meaning of the word.
It's Green for me today. They are a force for good in Europe and generally seem to work hard and have a degree of integrity. Their housing policy is the most sensible of all the parties, and they're opposed to fracking. And I'm impressed by Caroline Lucas. if they're all just half as good as her, they're pretty damn good imo.
Just to be sure that I wasn't straying too far from my own principles, I checked out one of those "how you should vote" sites. As an unreconstructed leftie, I was a bit surprised to find their policies fit most closely to what I want to see happen in Britain and in Europe.
On 22 May 2014 at 11:45am Interesting article wrote:
Wonder what UKIP Supporter, with his love of polls, has to say about this? "When you strip away the party name and poll people on policies alone, the Greens actually become the most popular party, polling 25% to Labour's 20%. Ukip poll just 12% on this measure."
Check it out here »
On 22 May 2014 at 11:51am Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
Their health policy seems to consist of no cuts to front-line health staff but cutting the number of managers, Belladonna. Oh, and cutting "health tourism", although all the right to reside rules prevent all those funny foreign fellows getting free treatment here anyway.
They have a 12-page manifesto on their website, most of which is a "cut out and keep" UKIP poster.
On 22 May 2014 at 12:23pm N. Hunter wrote:
Am I right to think that the Lewes UKIP candidate is Nigel H Jones, historian, journalist and biographer? If so, it'd be interesting to see how a man whose immediate ancestors fought in the European / world wars and who is fascinated by the first world was could end up so despising an organisation created to bring the countries of Europe together and reduce the possibility of third European / word war.
On 22 May 2014 at 12:34pm ukip supporter wrote:
Belladonna: You don't seem to understand the EU which you love so much. There are no 'local' candidates. Just because Jones and Donna Edmonds live in Lewes, it is not their constituency. They are two of ten candidates in the South east region. So instead of wasting their time campaigning in a left-liberal place like Lewes they have been speaking and campaigning elsewhere in Sussex, Kent, Surrey, Hants etc.
You ask where UKIP stands on Scots independence. We are 'the United Kingdom Independence Party' so we are for the Union, though of course if the Scots vote for independence that is up to them. If only we had the same opportunity in the rest of the UK! But Cameron won't grant us that privilege. yet. (Sighs!)
We also oppose the EU's right to make laws for this country on bent bananas or anything else- ( and 75 % of our laws now originate in Brussels) - since our laws should be made by the people we elect.
Perhaps, now you could answer one of my questions: why does the Left think its so groovy to give up power to an unelected and remote and frankly criminal organisation and surrender the power won and fought for by generations eg. the Levellers, Chartists, Suffragettes and those who died in two world wars.
Especially as no-one has ever voted for that?
On 22 May 2014 at 12:53pm Voter wrote:
UKIP Supporter. you have been asked twice about bendy bananas and straight cucumbers. Why no response?
Also do you support Donna Edmunds views that Neo Nazis running business should be allowed to ban Jews?
On 22 May 2014 at 1:13pm belladonna wrote:
UKIP supporter - I meant Nigel Jones is a local man, not that he is the local candidate. I understand very well the system under which the EU election is being held, so less of the patronising tone please.
In my view UKIP are a one-trick pony. They know they will never achieve power in this country via the Westminster route, so hypocritically fleece the very system they despise. Maybe they should put their money were their mouth is and not claim expenses and take an average British salary (about 26k) for the honour of NOT respresenting anyone in Brussels, if they are elected.
On 22 May 2014 at 1:23pm Angry Voter wrote:
You're right Belladonna, there are a lot of right wing parties to vote for. The mood is anti Europe. It's endemic throughout Europe. UKIP is pretty mild compared to other parties, here and especially in Europe. It WILL all end in carnage. The people are NOT happy with things as they are. Clearly. That's why the main stream parties, of which there are now only 2 really, are seriously worried. Rightly so.
On 22 May 2014 at 1:40pm Normal Not Angry Voter wrote:
Actually, a lot of us aren't angry at all. We are not so asily manipulated as to be whipped up into hatred by UKIP and other hatemongerers. We ignore stupid stories about the EU in the Daily Mail, knowing that the EU is as flawed as any other parliament, we go on holiday and on weekenders in Europe, we buy European food in Lidl and Aldi, drive Eurpoean cars, enjoy the freindship of all the different people from all over Europe that we meet, and even marry, we watch Danish Detective series, laugh at Eurovision, benefit from EU legislation that protects bees, women, gay people, our health, and stops dodgy people doing many of the things that UKIP claims are happening (Öbut aren't). Life ain't perfect, and the EU isn't going to stop the small number of militant terrorists we have to worry about, any more than they stopped the IRA.
I would love to know how UKIP would have handled that sensitive issue.
On 22 May 2014 at 3:28pm Ukip supporter wrote:
OK _ I'll try to answer the many fascinating questions raised & then toddle off the site because I have to earn a living.. (BTW no-one has yet answered MY question as to why the Left changed its mind and decided it would be groovy to give the country away to an unelected bureaucracy? Is it just part of the 'hate Britain' trope identified by Orwell among the Left in abour 1945.) Just askin...
Voter: I have already answered this. Bendy bananas are just an example of the avalanche of pettifogging rules and regulations that the EU has inflicted upon us 150,000 pages of em. ( without our having a say in any of them, naturally, as we are not talking about a democracy here).
Belladonna: Sorry if I was patronising. I thought from your question about why Jones has not knocked on your door that you thought as a local man he should campaign locally, but, as I explained he and the other 9 UKIP MEP candidates have the whole south-east to cover...at least I assume so. I don't know.
Yes, Ukip are a 'one trick pony' in that their chief objective is withdrawal from the EU. And yes, they are unlikely to achieve power via Westminster quickly BUT that is not their point. Their point is to achieve enough influence over the other parties to force their objective - ie. a referendum. They have already forced this upon Cameron and after their anticipated advance in the Euros, they will be in a still stronger position, I believe and Miliband may have to commit to a referendum also. I think you are going to have to accept, even in Lewes, that UKip, insult and belittle them as you may, are here to stay, will grow, & now speak for a huge slice of the public - say between a quarter and a third right now with the potential for reaching many more. I am afraid you are going to just have to live with that, even though many of these are 'common people' you would probably not wish to live next to.
(The attitude of the middle-class Lewes Left to Ukip reminds me of a Victorian maiden lady confronted by a big, hairy sweaty navvy in the buff. A kind of gasp of horror, raising of hands and averted eyes. 'My dear! The people!' (Swoons away...) even though many pretend to be 'Labour' which used to be the party of working people: that role has now clearly been usurped by UKip while Labour lies in the hands of a Geek who can't even eat a bacon sarnie properly, a millionaire who doesn't know the price of the weekly shop, and a desiccated Hampstead Marxist who has problems with his adenoids aka Ed Miliband all three being the same person.
But I digress...
I have explained the money issue. Not being funded by big business like the Tories or compulsory levies docked from the Union members like Labour, UkIp take Satan's cash to do God's work> ie. we get back some of the £55 million a day that Britain pays to the Robber Barons of Brussels for the privilege of being in their poxy little club to fund our campaign to get Britain out of its slimy tentacles..
Angry Voter has it right, something IS fundamentally wrong with the EU set up. Time to knock it down and start again, hopefully on more democratic lines. The alternative is a collapse into bloody civil strife a la Yugoslavia. Common people want to rule themselves, you see. Irritating of them though this is.
Finally, Normal Voter's paen of praise to the joys of Europe is music to my ears. We all love lolling in the Tuscan sun, bathing in the beaches of the Med, getting pissed in a Greek taverna, marvelling at the treasures of the Louvre, doing up that little place in the Dordogne. I myself lived and worked in Europe for years and have two children born there in my wild youth.
But WTF, pray, has this to do with the EU? An inorganic, ruinous, unauthentic entity that is ruining and beggaring half of our beautiful continent? And why is pointing this out 'hatemongering' ? I await your answer with interest.
The common misconception that the EU has kept the peace in Europe is not true. NATO, if any organisation, did that. The EU is merely stoking up the fuel for future conflicts. Get rid of it.
On 22 May 2014 at 3:44pm Tax payer wrote:
Goodness, UKIP Supporter. You have written a lot. But still no news about your views on bananas or cucumbers.
Not sure what the "loony left" has to do with anything. Why yet more UKIPpy generalisations? if it isn't an ethnic group, a sexuality, or a religion, you just have to label everyyone. This time its anyone who agrees that the EU is good as "loony lefties" . How about the 'mad middleground', or the 'revolting right' who supported/still support the EU too. Don't recall Margaret Thatcher, the woman who did whatever she wanted, taking us out of the EU or even having a referendum.
Even if UKIP got all the support they wanted, as predicted, that would leave the massive majority of the UK disagreeing with UKIP views.
Prpbably because they don't want someone like UKIP who are supporting a candidate who wants rights for Neo Nazis to discriminate against Jews. Do you agree with that?
On 22 May 2014 at 3:55pm Gerty wrote:
Christ, that's a long rant that still misses the point. As has been posted above, more people agree with Green policies than UKIP policies. Read the article. You'll enjoy it. UKIP popularity stems from media exposure of populist soundbites and the presentation of them as a protest group, not actual policy, so by actually arguing their policies you are in a minority of UKIP supporters. It's a brief period in the sun...enjoy it while it lasts. I think what sums up the difference is the fact you see no issue in UKIP taking money out of the EU, while I'm proud of the fact the party I support handed back a donation from a non-dom because it didn't meet their ethical policy (see todays Argus for that story about the Greens) even though they need the money. I like ethical politics. It's a bit anti-establishment and shaking up the status quo, but then I think that's what politics needs and only the Greens offer it so they are my protest vote. Finally, in answer to your question, I have no idea why the left "decided" to give away power to an unelected etc etc etc., but Margaret Thatcher amongst a lot of other right wingers supported it too - it had and has broad support beyond political lines. A lot of people still think it's the best thing for Britain too so maybe the "hate Britain" trope is subjective. I'd argue UKIP's actions show greater disregard for Britain than anyone pro-EU...
On 22 May 2014 at 4:26pm Border Control wrote:
It's going to be a bumpy night !
On 22 May 2014 at 4:28pm Ukip supporter wrote:
Gert: I know I said I'd get off this site, but Lefty-baiting is like taking smack...it's just so 'moreish'.
I know you like juggling figures from your previous posts. but how you work out that the Greens are more popular than Ukip amazes me. (Well, to be fair, maybe on Planes Brighton-Lewes they are but not in the real world).
I repeat, at the end of this election I predict Ukip will have 30% of the poll, and around 20 MEPs.
The Greens with that marvellous 'Forward to the stone age' agenda will have about 6% of the vote and 2-3 MEPs.
I think I can see who's the more popular old girl!
On 22 May 2014 at 4:43pm Enry wrote:
" I know I said I'd get off this site, but Lefty-baiting is like taking smack...it's just so 'moreish'. "
Umm, perhaps you should have kept that little tidbit private.
On 22 May 2014 at 5:02pm tax payer wrote:
A poll is not fact. we shall see what the actual votes are like, of those who actually vote.
and still no news about UKIP Supporters views about EU bendy banana regulations and cucumbers. You know that someone ignores a question 4 times, that they don't like the question. Nigel Farage being the king of that tactic.
Maybe smack affects the memory. Unfortunately, whilst I may be somewhat to the left of UKIP Supporter, I have no idea what taking smack is like so it is hard to make the comparison he/she does.
On 22 May 2014 at 5:14pm Ukip supporter wrote:
Tax payer: not avoiding it at all, I have already answered the bendy banana question!
'Smack': slang for heroin. Common usage for about fifty years.
Enry: I'm not actually an addict...it was .. a joke. (Sighs. Rolls eyes).