On 21 Jan 2018 at 11:21pm James Heaslip wrote:
Owen Jones meets Dr Mike Galsworthy 'The people should be able to pull the plug on Brexit'
Watch the video »
On 22 Jan 2018 at 8:35am PorkPie wrote:
Yes, should be able to. But can't.
On 22 Jan 2018 at 9:31am + wrote:
On 22 Jan 2018 at 10:05am Bert wrote:
Don't like Democracy ? Tough
On 22 Jan 2018 at 10:37am Deja Vu wrote:
Let's wait and see, if the final deal doesn't match the brochure we should be given a second vote.
If the final deal does match the brochure, then we all knew what we voted for...
On 22 Jan 2018 at 10:56am Pedro wrote:
Any good democracy should be able to evaluate past decisions, and be able to either change their minds about them, or at least sanity check them through.
A vote of this magnitude should be scrutinised, as the referendum did not clarify the finer points of how britain should leave the EU nor its subsequent relationship with the EU. Given how close the vote was, and how there is no consensus even on the brexit side about what a post-brexit Britain's relationship with the EU should look like, why would we be so dismissive about further votes on this? It seems that some sort of soft-brexit would be ultimately the will of the people, as you can't now ignore the 16.5m remainers entirely, just as you shouldn't silence those that voted brexit, but have less radical ideas about brexit, than say Nigel Farage or Henry Boltons bit on the side Jo Marney. Why should the noisiest, fervent brexit voters get to decide the future of Britain over the majority of the country? Compromises must be made, for the sake of a united democratic country. This should not be a zero-sum game.
On 22 Jan 2018 at 11:54am The people wrote:
Simple answer is NO. The people voted but the establishment and others want the UK to having another vote the another until they get their way. Ver
On 22 Jan 2018 at 12:04pm Pedro wrote:
@ The People, had the result been 52% remain, would you and UKIP disappeared and/or conformed in line with what "the people" wanted? I think not. Farage was already accepting defeat on the night of June 23rd, and saying this is far from the end....we would have ended up with another referendum later down the line, just as we will have one on scottish independence as well. Still, at least Farage is coming round again to the idea of another referendum.
The fact is, we need to have a robust debate about our relationship with the EU, and it requires an overhaul, but brexit doesn't mean one thing (that is going on in some peoples heads), it means a possibility of a number of things as that what a democracy is about - getting the best fit and compromise for the country. If there is no consensus, which there isn't, there needs to be some kind of acceptable agreement that appeases the remainers, the hard brexiters and the soft brexiters (and any "sub-group" within each of these voter groups as well). Not easy, but better than yielding to a noisy minority.
On 22 Jan 2018 at 12:47pm stan wrote:
It's such a complex issue. i dislike intensely being under the joke of unelected neoliberal EU money men and technocrats. The EU has become a Bankers' Europe with little regard for anything but the needs of finance capital. Having close ties with Europe entails embracing this broken model of late capitalism; Luxembourg(!)'s Juncker epitomises this. The European elites have made the EU a system that serves their interests. Reaction amongst our elites to Brexit supports this. But the control of exiting has now fallen into the hands of hard right Tories and chancers and opportunists. They are wanting to use the City and its money business to create in effect a tax free haven and to hold all the control (or lack of..) That is as bad if not worse. Devil and the deep blue sea if you ask me. Fundamentally no one is thinking of ordinary people and how they will thrive and be protected. An example of this is the way theTroika has treated people in Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain. Perhaps we need a completely new way of doing politics and economic management. At the moment the choice being offered is probably spurious.
On 22 Jan 2018 at 1:27pm Potter wrote:
I've got a Troika pot.
On 22 Jan 2018 at 4:54pm the people wrote:
Pedro - if the vote went the other way so be it. People cannot pick and choose what results they are happy about then try to reverse if they don't like it.
Stan - And the problems in Italy will surface this year and Brexit will be the first of a few. If you are a net cash contributor the burden will get harder to fund the other countries. The poorer nationals do not want EU to determine their life styles as set by depressed economies etc
On 22 Jan 2018 at 5:26pm Most of the people wrote:
It's increasingly obvious that within 20 years of leaving we'll rejoin but on far less advantageous terms, and probably have to adopt the euro too. That is what brextremists are bringing about which is ironic really. There is no way people will want the drop in living standards and increased cost of living from Brexit. People are already unhappy with the consequences and we've not even left yet.
On 22 Jan 2018 at 6:37pm cats and pidgeons wrote:
we can stop running away from peace and prosperity within europe at anytime, up to the placing pen to paper
long live a strong UK within the EU
On 22 Jan 2018 at 6:52pm the people wrote:
"most of the people "- The EU will not be around in 20 years. The cost burden to the few countries is not sustainable. The long term economics don't support EU survival.
On 22 Jan 2018 at 7:00pm @the people wrote:
When you say "the people have spoken" what you really mean is that the old - potentially dead by the time it all happens - people have spoken. If 16 and 17 year olds had been allowed a say it would doubtless have gone the other way. And it is their future the grey nostalgics voted to put in jeopardy. I feel aggrieved on behalf of my children that a bunch of backward looking simpletons living in some xenophobic fantasy have limited everyone's freedom of movement, as well as voting to suicidally weaken our economy.
On 22 Jan 2018 at 7:07pm @the people wrote:
Not to mention that brexit is a grave insult to so many who laid down their lives in pursuit of peace in Europe. Whilst the EU is primarily a trading bloc, the necessity of working together has kept rivalry, aggression and bellicosity at bay. You can bet that with a disintegrated EU, our long lasting peace will be that much more precarious - particularly with the terrifying popularity of fascists like UKIP and marine Le Penn. People have such very short memories.
On 22 Jan 2018 at 7:34pm Sussex Jim wrote:
We have had a democratic referendum, and will be leaving the EU. there is still time for the bad losers to emigrate to other EU countries; and leave an independant Britain free to trade with the rest of the world.
And live within our own laws- not what Brussels dictates.
On 22 Jan 2018 at 8:30pm The people wrote:
@thepeople, and I am young and open to all peoples but believe in democracy and that is what Brexit is all about. Or I guess you want another and another vote until you get your way.
On 22 Jan 2018 at 8:37pm @the people wrote:
No, I do not want hundreds of referenda until I get "my way"
(along with the "way" of the majority of young people who have to live with the mess created by the delusional "sovereignty" seeking Gove/Boris following sheep). But I do think a referendum on the terms of brexit is the only moral thing to do, given that the pro brexit campaign lied its way to its narrow, ultimately Pyrrhic, victory. £350m a week? Such a joke.
On 22 Jan 2018 at 9:19pm Cliffebimbo wrote:
Leaving the eu will put animal rights severely in peril
I’m a vegan btw
On 22 Jan 2018 at 9:26pm Oh dear wrote:
Sussex Jim's failure to understand how EU law comes into British legislation is typical of leavers. It's largely voluntary. That's why you can still smoke in some German bars, why you get deported in most of Europe if you emigrate and can't support yourself, and much more besides. These and many other decisions are made by our government who choose to enforce EU law in its strictest sense. They don't have to though. They could go the German way or French or Belgian and be a bit less authoritarian. That's what you get for voting Tory though.
On 22 Jan 2018 at 9:41pm Clifford wrote:
Pedro wrote: 'Any good democracy should be able to evaluate past decisions...'
Yes, 'democracy' EU-style. Vote and vote again until you give us the result we want at the EU Commission.
'When the proposed European Constitution was rejected by voters in France and Holland (most government did not even allow a vote) this meant nothing to ‘the Project’. A few cosmetic tweeks, and it was imposed anyway; now it was called ‘the Lisbon Treaty’. The leaders admitted that this was what happened. As Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, the former French president who drafted the EU Constitution wrote in The Independent - ‘The EU Treaty is the same as the Constitution’.
On 22 Jan 2018 at 9:46pm Donald wrote:
Yawn, roll on March 2019, trade will be there on the table UK, trust me, I am a genius, very smart guy, we will build that wall, and the French will pay for it, trust me.
On 22 Jan 2018 at 10:54pm marlen wrote:
Do those who glorify the EU for being extra mindful of protecting our environment realise that the EU have just approved a 5 year extension on the use of Glyphosate, Monsanto’s flagship herbicide suspected of causing cancer and killing our bees. Probably those particularly green EU enthusiasts have not taken the trouble to read up on the day to day workings of the EU and prefer to stick to their ideologically determinded tunnel vision and repeat slogans they heard from another virtuous self righteous Guardian reader in their bubble. Btw, a similar tunnel vision can be found among Brexiteers. That’s what makes the present “discussions” about the EU so boring, predictable, and ultimately pointless - everybody is stuck in their own little box.
On 23 Jan 2018 at 9:40am Deja Vu wrote:
Regardless of what good deeds the EU do, the main objection is that it is undemocratic.
We're leaving the EU in name only with at least 2 years of a Norway style deal, I'm willing to bet it'll be at least 4 years (probably 6, if we ever leave at all).
My point above was a serious one, every UK household had a leaflet through the door telling them exactly what Brexit meant, presumably everyone who voted leave (not me) voted in the full belief that the points in that brochure would be carried out?
So how do the Brexiter's feel now, knowing that you won the vote but we're staying in with a Norway style deal anyway?
I don't recall any of that being mentioned in the brochure...
On 23 Jan 2018 at 10:30am Tom Pain wrote:
Long live a strong Britain in Europe. I can agree with that. If you study the EU's policy you will discover that they want to dissolve the nation state. That makes it much easier for massive corporations to dominate us and they are not democratic. The larger state,the smaller the individual; that's obvious. It's not xenophobia that fuels my distrust of the EU super state but a concern for the individual. I agree with stan but you'll find that The City of London is an onshore tax haven! It's a sovereign city state not subject to the law of the UK. There's much to discover on this subject. Is it not interesting that the Queen has to ask permission of the Lord Mayor to enter The City of London; he in his robes of office and she in humble civilian attire? As Disraeli stated on many occasions; the world is not ruled by who you think. He wasn't some internet conspiracy theorist was he but Prime Minister of Great Britain.
On 23 Jan 2018 at 11:02am Clifford wrote:
PFI has finally been revealed for the sham it is. But how many of our Remainers are aware that it was yet another gift from the neo-liberal EU, the institution so beloved by the banks, Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan?
'John Major began PFI projects following his ratification of the Maastricht treaty which imposed limits on public spending in 1992. The treaty effectively outlawed public borrowing on major infrastructure projects, allowing the City of London to successfully lobby the government to introduce PFI.'
No wonder the City is so fond of the EU.
On 23 Jan 2018 at 12:51pm The people wrote:
PFI is the biggest financial strain on tax payers and will continue till 2045. All because of EU regulations which forced the UK away from cheaper funding options. This is just one on so many EU directives that have hit the UK. The latest one, which will cause major problems in the UK is Open Banking. The people voted out and we should have had the vote years ago. The only winners are the Establishment and those with money.
On 23 Jan 2018 at 4:01pm @ marlen wrote:
They've got us on a spike
On 24 Jan 2018 at 1:09pm Tom Pain wrote:
Open banking! That's a real oxymoron.