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Ukraine again

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On Fri 25 Feb at 7:42pm Green Sleeves wrote:
TP recently wrote : "Whilst reading around this subject, I came across the information that, since tha fall of the Soviet Union, Russia has invaded no, zero, naught countries. In the same period, the US has invaded or regime changed about 50, fifty, half a ton! I seem to remember that Ukraine was one of them. There's also the neo Nazi Ukrainian factor, with the Azov brigade who have a penchant for killing the Russian speaking people in the eastern part of the country who look to Russia to protect them. You bet those nutters will be up to their tricks, trying to bait the Russians to intervene, when they indulge in some gratuitous killing."

Sounds very Putin-esque there TP.....also are you willing to admit that Russia has at least added to their invasion tally in recent days? Or will be you forever in denial that you once again have been caught up on the wrong side of history?
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On Sat 26 Feb at 10:11pm Tom Pain wrote:
What do you think about the Ukrainian Neo Nazi nationalists? And thanks for repeating my post. I hope it will provide some balance to the war mongering propaganda that I presume is screaming from the media. Do you remember Nariyah the nurse's tearful report of brutal Iraqi soldiers killing babies in Kuwait? Did you later see that she was the Kuwaiti ambassador's daughter in the U.S.and she was not in Kuwait? It was filmed by a public relations company in the U.S. as propaganda. I was completely taken in and outraged by it. I shall not believe anything in the media this time I hope. I presume that you with your hatred of nationalism and borders are unmoved by the situation.
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On Sat 26 Feb at 11:03pm David Stanley wrote:
Tom

Check it out here »
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On Sun 27 Feb at 12:06pm Tom Pain wrote:
Thanks David, there's going to be a lot more of this. During the Libya campaign the BBC showed pictures of massive anti Gaddafi protests taken in India of someting else entirely! After the Cold War finished, NATO agreed not to expand into formerly communist countries in East Europe, which they immediately did. What do you expect to happen on either side of history?
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On Mon 28 Feb at 11:36am Green Sleeves wrote:
Thats a judgement call. While I would have preferred NATO to not expand at all as per a loose verbal agreement with the departing leadership of a crumbling Soviet empire....a LOT has changed since 1991 and the Soviet collapse.

These "formerly communist countries" in East europe are now fully independent states that while may have been initially grateful for the liberation of Nazi occupation in the 1940s, have mostly grown weary of Russian/Soviet occupation by the early 90s and the authorit
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On Mon 28 Feb at 11:41am Green Sleeves wrote:
See TP, its not just you that gets posts censored!
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On Tue 1 Mar at 11:41am Tom Pain wrote:
I saw a photo of an old lady with bloodstained bandages all over her head on the front of newspapers the other day. A victim of the evil tyant? Not exactly. It had been used some years previously and she was the victim of a gas explosion then it seems. A lot changes but much remains the same.
 
 
On Wed 2 Mar at 4:13pm David Stanley wrote:
1. Arm untrained civilians and criminals.
2. Complain Russians are firing at civilians. ?
 
 
On Fri 4 Mar at 9:39pm Tom Pain wrote:
IF... Scotland devolved from the UK. The EU built large military bases with missiles etc. in the border district. Bands of paramilitary Celtic supremacist Scottish thugs made raids south of the border looting and killing thousands... Would the UK be evil monsters for invading Scotland to put a stop to it after 8 years of seeking a peaceful solution?
 
 
On Wed 9 Mar at 10:27am Tom Pain wrote:
For once we are seeing stand up, in your face, self identifying FASCISTS. Nasty bullying Ukrainian nazis and all the antifa progressives are silent or waving blue and yellow flags. The man who stood up to these racist thugs is decried as Hitler! You couldn't make it up.
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On Wed 9 Mar at 5:29pm Green Sleeves wrote:
Who is decried as Hitler? The jewish Ukranian actor, or Dobby Putin?

I'm surprised you haven't come out with it being a fake war, as they're all in on the conspiracy. All part of the GREAT RESET Davos agenda. Crisis actors flooding the streets of Ukraine etc etc. Hamid Barr is a KGB spy.
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On Thu 10 Mar at 11:59am Tom Pain wrote:
What a surprise! I wasn't aware that I had responded to the adjacent free manure advert.
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On Fri 11 Mar at 11:35am Nevillman wrote:
Looks like not even green can be bothered to try to try to discuss this with you anymore Tom.
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On Fri 11 Mar at 10:07pm Tom Pain wrote:
For the last 8 years Ukraine has been genociding the Russian speaking inhabitants of the breakaway republics of the Donbas region. It wasn't in the news, I didn't know about it, very few did, including you I suppose. I've been reading up on the history and it's not pretty. Greenies superficial, supercilious remarks are about what I expected and yours aren't exactly enlightening or helpful. Are you sending donations to the Azov Battalion?
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On Sat 12 Mar at 8:54am Green Sleeves wrote:
Hes calling us neo nazis for not supporting the hero Vlad Putin's "special operation" which involves carefully levelling Ukranian cities and shelling hospitals, apartment blocks and nuclear power stations. This is all in the name of protecting Ukraine from the real threat of neo nazis and its jewish leader Zelenskyy. Putin is merely a liberator in all of this....

...this is why nobody takes you seriously TP. You latch on to every kooky cause that offers itself on a plate. You can be the centre of attention again.

I wasnt really expecting a nuanced view of this conflict from TP. I knew he wouldnt be pro NATO, and that isnt such a bad thing....but to revert to Putins playbook is cringe, and confirms everything i thought about TP. What a dummy.

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On Sat 12 Mar at 11:05am Nevillman wrote:
I was responding to your point about the manure advert Tom so I'm not sure you're in much of a position to accuse me of not being enlightening or helpful in my observation. I would also be a little cautious of accusing green of making superficial and supercilious remarks.
Sounds like you had to dig pretty deep to find out about Ukrainian terrorists in the Donbas region which allows you to justify your position of condoning the invasion of a sovereign state and attacks on civilians. Nothing personal Tom but my experience of reading your posts over the years does not necessarily fill me with confidence as to the accuracy of your sources.
 
 
On Sat 12 Mar at 9:47pm Tom Pain wrote:
Correction- What the Gronslev bot states is a product of his drug addled mind and bears no relationship to what I have said or any aspect of reality whatsoever. Nevilski, where have I condoned anything? As for my sources, I would expect you to find your own, hopefully from before the current slew of hysterical propaganda, but I'm not holding my breath. Refute anything I've said if you can but for the sake of brevity, omit the snarky ad hominems, comrad.
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On Sun 13 Mar at 11:47am Green Sleeves wrote:
The Azov Battalion are a far right-wing, neo nazi, paramilitary group? I would suggest that by asking someone if they donated to them, you are implying they're neo-nazis themselves, or at least sympathisers. You are constantly making snarky ad-hominems, and yet complaining about others doing it you. Practice what you preach, brother....comrade.

Why don't you just summarise what your view of the war/conflict is right now. Then we won't have to accuse you of being a Putin worshiper, as you will provide all the context of your position. I'm not going to fall off my chair if you are to include that NATO expansionism to the east fueled some of this. So go ahead.
 
 
On Mon 14 Mar at 10:45am Tom Pain wrote:
I've already done that and your comments suggest that I've said something completely different. I've never mentioned the word Putin or my opinion of him, yet you ASSUME many things which I in turn can only assume are deliberately misleading or that you have not read correctly or are hallucinating. There's no need to fall off your chair about nato expansion or the Asov thugs, I'm sure the Retardian has covered it in the past.
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On Mon 14 Mar at 11:55am Nevillman wrote:
I have to disagree with you Tom. I have carefully re-read everything you've said on this and again been left with the impression that you think the Russian invasion is justified. What was the point you made on march 4th about otherwise for instance? If this is not your position then please can you clarify what it is.
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On Mon 14 Mar at 12:14pm Green Sleeves wrote:
Yes, im confused as to your full position. Seems that you are parroting what Putin has said about neo-nazis taking over Ukraine....yet their President (Zelenskyy) is a moderate, as well as Jewish, and far-right parties got about 2% of the vote in the last elections. The notion that Ukraine is somehow a deeply far-right wing nationalist country is a bit far fetched. Although having an occupying force invade the country will surely only promote nationalism in Ukraine....Russia are creating far mor
 
 
On Mon 14 Mar at 8:51pm Tom Pain wrote:
I have no position on Ukraine, it's none of my business. I have no idea what Putin says. All I have done is state a few facts that I knew would be ignored by the media. The Ukrainian army has been attacking the Russian speaking breakaway autonomous republics of the Donbass for eight or so years. ie- invading sovereign countries. The "moderate jewish" president has not stopped it, pretty laissez-faire,what? Russia may be paranoid about the nato countries, but in view of their behaviour in former Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria, can you blame them? In view of the media's total bias in these conflicts I take anything they say with a huge pinch of salt, cancel that, they are pure propaganda, weapons of mass destruction anyone? I've just read about a former Ukrainian Prime Minister saying on facebook that Ukraine was planning a full scale invasion of the Donbass before Russia preempted it. Whatever, we'll never know the truth.
 
 
On Tue 15 Mar at 8:58am Green Sleeves wrote:
You are saying precisely what Putin is saying/arguing, and there has been little evidence to back it up, hence why Russia and its one satellite state Belarus are totally isolated for their invasion. Do you trust authoritarian Putins argument over the majority of the Ukraines, and pretty much every democratically elected leader in the world?

The former Ukrainian PM went into exile in Russia, and is a Putin stooge, of course he's going to tear into those who removed him. Use the balance of probability when it comes to peoples character....instead of just trying to have the minority view for the sake of attention.
 
 
On Tue 15 Mar at 7:11pm Green Sleeves wrote:
NATO have indeed been involved in questionable conflicts in the past, some which makes no sense given their remit should apply to the North Atlantic....but i think it was just Britain and the US that went in alone with the WMDs nonsense for Iraq. Something which was heavily criticised at the time, with millions turning out in protest against it around the world - strangely, we (Britain and the US), never seemed to face crippling sanctions with that invasion and occupation, so there are some double-standards there which I am fully aware of.

Although comparing former actor and stage-darling Vlodimir Zelenskyy to Saddam Hussein isn't quite so straightforward. For one, Zelenskyy was democratically elected, and hasn't demonstrated using weapons of mass destruction that resulted in the death of at least 500,000 people - i'm obviously referring to Saddam gassing the Kurds. Hussein was a brutal dictator, and had already shown aggression towards his neighbours and harbored interest in developing nuclear weapons, and certainly used chemical and bio weapons. My point is that the sympathy towards Saddam Hussein was likely to be significantly less than what Zelenskyy has received, and rightly so. I've seen no strong evidence that he is anything but a moderate politician.

I will however concede that some countries may enjoy the "stability" of an authoritarian dictator, compared to a democracy where things basically flip every 4/5 years because half the population are usually idiots, and the other half aren't quite as idiotic and can't abide corrupt and incompetent leadership.
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On Wed 16 Mar at 11:04am Tom Pain wrote:
Saddam was a bad man and the world's better off without him . Yes. I'm glad that you agree with Bush jr. Is the world better off with Iraq bombed back to the stone age,( and Afghanistan and Libya and millions of their inhabitants)? One day you might realise that all the enemies of the globalist dream, or perhaps countries rich in natural resources that the global empire covets, are described as evil dictators who kill their own people. Of course the moderate Zelensky and his merry men just made a mistake in the Donbass and some unfortunate accidents occurred over the past few years, killing at least 500,000 people! Perhaps you are echoing cuddly moderate Bush, if I may use your duplicitous guilt by association method. Keep up the propaganda and don't forget- We have bio-labs, They have bio-warfare labs, the (in)distinction is crucial at the moment.
 
 
On Wed 16 Mar at 11:23am Green Sleeves wrote:
There are no credible reports of 500k deaths as a result of the conflict since 2014. 13-14k seems more likely based on a number of sources including the United Nations. This is not including since the full-scale Russian invasion in February.

Saddam was a tyrant, he genuinely was a brutal dictator who had been in power for decades. Putin has become a dictator, and he supports fellow dictators in Assad and Xi Ping. The consequences of removing Saddam were catastrophic for the region for years to come, I was against the war from the outset....but one good thing that came from it is that its removed one dictator from the list. Pity he couldn't have been assassinated before the US bombdozed their way in.
 
 
On Wed 16 Mar at 10:24pm Tom Pain wrote:
Yes the number of 500k was a skeptical comment on your kurdish total. I don't doubt that you believe it. I've seen 60k for the Donbas but frankly 1 is too many for any occasion. The whole affair stinks and neither side are virtuous. War is good for big business and very bad for people. The impeccably researched and sourced books of Anthony Sutton should be required reading in every educational institution. Everyone should be shown that the same concerns support both sides in conflicts to their immense profit.
 
 
On Thu 17 Mar at 8:39pm Green Sleeves wrote:
Happy to correct the Kurds to 100-180k deaths via Saddam. Thought I had heard before about Hussein gassing half a million kurds, but content to stand corrected on that. So he killed more than 100k people, he was a genocidal maniac basically. I don't think you could really call Vlod the Impaler Zelenskyy that, unless he previously had an acting role where he played a brutal tyrant.

Therefore I can see why there is more public animosity towards this invasion by Russia, compared with US/UK over Iraq, even though I fully acknowledge both are/were wrong. I would be very cautious about investing too much credulity towards Putins motives for war, neo-nazi claims etc. All politicians can lie, but dictators tend to be more unreliable in the truth department by default...
 
 
On Fri 18 Mar at 10:52pm Tom Pain wrote:
I'm offering Ukrainian flag covid masks- 40? no 20 a pop. Double the virtue, half the price. You know it makes sense. Buy now while stocks last.
 
 
On Sat 19 Mar at 12:05pm Green Sleeves wrote:
Did you come up with that amazing joke yourself, perhaps after a couple of glasses of vino? You probably thought it was a great idea at nearly 11pm on a friday night.

What a strange life you lead, where you spend so much effort maligning the act of others merely wearing protective masks, and don't seem to accept the gravity of Ukraine being bombed to bits by an invading nuclear superpower. Or you consider that people who seem to care about others as "virtue signaling" or whatever cliched alt-right term thats in vogue. Typically used when someone can't quite grasp that empathy exists in some humans, as they are themselves devoid of it.
 
 
On Sun 20 Mar at 10:19am Nevillman wrote:
Well done green. I'm afraid that I came to the conclusion it was pointless even trying to engage with him a while ago and it looks like everyone else has as well now. You kept going for longer than anyone else and that is admirable. Unfortunately I think Tom takes the Tom Paine myth too far and thinks it's just about upsetting people, questioning all authority, courting personal unpopularity and getting a reputation as a 'free thinker'. The real Tom Paine did also stand for things and is unlikely to have tacitly supported the invasion of a sovereign state for instance. Tom may well come back on this but I am unlikely to respond unless desperately bored. I hope to discuss matters with you in the future green.
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On Sun 20 Mar at 10:58am Green Sleeves wrote:
Yeah, I think its an ego thing with TP for the most part, with some ignorance and gullibility thrown in. The result is basically the very definition of an internet troll.
 
 
On Sun 20 Mar at 10:47pm Tom Pain wrote:
Do you endorse the invasion of the breakaway Donbas states, for the last seven or so years, by Ukraine? Yes or no? Once we've settled that we can move on and discuss the merits of the present situation.
 
 
On Mon 21 Mar at 4:48pm Green Sleeves wrote:
Its a silly loaded question but i dont agree the way these parts of ukraine were rapidly annexed by Russia in 2014 with very little evidence to support its departure from Ukraine was legal or justified. Putin has based a lot of his motives on lies and distortions. It seems far more likely to be a russian land grab than some sort of noble mission to help protect its neighbours from neo nazis and russian language policies. You may take Putins word for it, but im more skeptical. Just something about a nationalist, oligarch and dictator that doesnt scream to me truth.
 
 
On Mon 21 Mar at 7:27pm Tom Pain wrote:
Neither silly nor loaded, but if that's your way of avoiding it, so be it. I see the Nevill Green Dramatic Society are presenting the Tweedle Twins double act in another thrilling performance. Can we anticipate a reprise of the dreamer's mind bending mental gymnastics? Perhaps ferret will weasel his way in with his furry friends, anything can happen in the topsy turvey world of the forum!
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On Mon 21 Mar at 7:48pm Green Sleeves wrote:
I'm not avoiding your loaded question, just stated the fact that it was a loaded question, which is silly in itself to ask. You'd have been better off asking if you thought it was an invasion to begin with, but i'll save you the extra post. Clearly I don't agree that it was an invasion by Ukraine, given that these regions were/are recognised as part of Ukraine by the entire world except for Russia. Nobody is convinced that Russia has restored democracy in those regions, let alone security.

Now to let you in to what a REAL invasion looks like, please view the cities across Ukraine on fire from Russian artillery and the occasional thermobaric bombs. Ukraine didn't do that themselves, it was from an invading force trying to change regime by military action and threats.

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On Tue 22 Mar at 8:59pm Tom Pain wrote:
Who changed the regime in Ukraine in 2014? It was a violent coup brought about by the far right, bought and paid for by the US and Ukrainian oligarchs. One in particular owns the TV company that made the show in which Zelenski played the president, then formed the political party for him to lead! Mr.Z is now said to be a billionaire- nice work if you can get it. I'm beginning to think that it's all about the sanctions, it looks as if they'll cripple OUR economy as much as Russia's. On top of the Fed printing money like mad and the economic damage of lockdowns things don't look too good. Just right for a Great Reset. I wouldn't take too much notice of the propaganda, most of it is usually fake. People want to believe it because they hate Big Bad Vlad so much, he's just today's Mr Punch.


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