On 11 Sep 2018 at 11:21am happiness wrote:
Cracking article from the beeb this morning:
"Wages saw faster than expected growth in the three months to July, as they continued to outstrip rising prices.
Excluding bonuses, wages grew by 2.9%, according to figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS), well above the inflation rate.
Earnings have now outstripped inflation for several months.
Unemployment continued to fall, dropping by 55,000 to 1.36 million, with the jobless rate remaining at 4%, its lowest level for over 40 years.
The number of people in work was unchanged at 32.4 million. "
Bloody Brexit! Why is this happening?
Corbyn and McDonnell must be bloody furious...
On 11 Sep 2018 at 12:46pm Mark wrote:
And that Happiness is proof perfect that a (rapidly dwindling) number of people continue to have blinkered Brexit thinking. It would be really and truly tragic if, at this stage in the economic cycle, there wasn't a faltering, creeping recovery from the banking crisis. We've had ten years of recession. We lag far behind the US and the Eurozone on GDP growth. Those countries are enjoying a true recovery. We're predicted to have the lowest growth in the G20 this year - as a consequence of Brexit.
On 11 Sep 2018 at 1:14pm happiness wrote:
10 years of recession? According to whom? Diane Abbott?
Economics is clearly not be your strongest subject but it might be worth looking at what recession means.
Our last recession was 10 years ago!
On 11 Sep 2018 at 1:21pm I remember wrote:
a recession in the 90's. I also remember Ted Heath taking us into the Common Market. What a pillock he was.
On 11 Sep 2018 at 2:19pm Mark wrote:
And when, pray tell Happiness, did the recession that we had 10 years ago come to an end?
On 11 Sep 2018 at 2:25pm happiness wrote:
Following six consecutive quarters of negative growth, the UK economy finally moved out of recession in the last quarter of 2009.
It's all on the ONS website if you're interested.
Those momentum chaps won't like you reading it though. It's the truth.
On 11 Sep 2018 at 3:22pm Mark wrote:
I see. Happiness has been googling. That's a very precise definition of what constitutes a recession. The word is often used more loosely. I'll rephrase to suit your chosen definition. UK economic performance has been abysmal since the banking crisis. Eurozone and the US are well on the way to recovery with very healthy economic growth. The UK is not. This is a result of the referendum result and the failure of the austerity regime.
On 11 Sep 2018 at 3:42pm happiness wrote:
It's a precise definition because it is factually correct.
Just because some lefties feel hard up doesn't mean we're in a recession.
Our economy is still growing and Q2 growth was higher than expected.
On 11 Sep 2018 at 7:26pm Mark wrote:
Comrade Happiness, put this in your pipe and smoke it... Having GDP growth that isn't actually negative and having a rate of wage growth that is above the rate of inflation are not indications that an economy is doing well. A normal rate of GDP increase for a country with a post-industrialised economy such as ours would be about 1.8 or 2%, fluctuating with the business cycle. Diane Abbott is a black woman from a deprived background who made it onto a degree course at Cambridge. The two examples of truly astonishing economic growth in the the last 200 years are the Soviet Union (1917-1980) and China recently. Those are/were both centrally planned economies. Planning, on a national level, works on an economic level.
On 11 Sep 2018 at 7:32pm Observer wrote:
Sadly Mark, youíve got no chance of winning an argument about the economy when you donít even know what a recession is.
On 11 Sep 2018 at 7:51pm Hyena wrote:
@ Mark, whats DA got to do with anything?
On 11 Sep 2018 at 8:13pm Mark wrote:
@Observer. That particular way of defining the word recession is recent and is one, I suppose, that the ONS has adopted. A recession, more broadly, is an severe economic downturn.
On 11 Sep 2018 at 8:58pm Andymac wrote:
Mark - if you're seriously putting forward the Soviet Union as an example of a successful economy, then sorry, there's no point in taking seriously anything you have to say on the subject. I know that you're a big fan of St Jeremy - presumably you think his economic policies will be every bit as successful. What are your thoughts on Maduro's policies in Venezuela, just out of interest?
On 11 Sep 2018 at 10:41pm Fairmeadow wrote:
In-migration continues, but has slowed slightly (you can blame Brexit, racism or the falling pound according to your world view).
Wages remain low, but have at last actually outpaced inflation.
Some economists, like Karl Marx, would see a link between the two, though not the Momentum crew.
Could it be that our low income fellow citizens who voted for Brexit in their millions knew something that the panicking remoaners are not smart enough to understand?
On 12 Sep 2018 at 8:04am Mark wrote:
That's your choice Andymac but it is a fact that the USSR was hugely successful in terms of economic growth. Russia went from being a feudal economy to challenging the Americans in the space race and arms race in only 50 years.
On 12 Sep 2018 at 9:07am Andymac wrote:
Mark - do you think the millions and millions of corpses which were a direct result of the Soviet Union's economic policies were a price worth paying for economic 'success'? The Ukrainian holodomor? The famines resulting from forced collectivisations? Or to take your other example, China, the unnumbered deaths caused by the Great Leap Forward? Not sure that I'd hold either up as an example to emulate, as you seem to be doing. But maybe Jeremy thinks they've all been greatly exaggerated.
On 12 Sep 2018 at 10:15am Mark wrote:
Granted, there were appalling genocides in both China and the USSR a century ago. I don't speak for Jeremy but what I would say is that the economic growth that those countries experience/d wasn't dependent on violence. The USSR continued to thrive after it stopped exterminating millions. Cuba has never had genocide and continues to be very successful by West Indian standards. Russia has largely privatised its economy and Russians are still brutal thugs.
On 12 Sep 2018 at 10:43am Andymac wrote:
Mark - sorry, but you are just plain wrong. The Great Leap Forward in China was not a genocide, it was a key part of Mao's programme for China's economic development. It was imposed between 1958 and 1962 (far from 100 years ago), and resulted directly in tens of millions of deaths. The famine in the USSR in the 1930s caused by Stalin's forced collectivisation (not a genocide but a key part of Communist economic policy, and also not 100 years ago) also resulted in millions of deaths from starvation. These were not separate from the Communist economic plans in these countries, they were integral parts of it. Go and read some history - not the juvenile Stalinism of Owen Jones or the adolescent witterings of Sqwawkbox, but real actual proper history. Until you do, I refer you back to my earlier point - your views are not to be taken seriously.
On 12 Sep 2018 at 11:03am Despond wrote:
Re the space race. Both the U.S. and U.S.S.R. space programs were only possible because of the German rocket scientists who they "liberated" in 1945.
Similarly the MIG-15 -17 were built around a jet engine developed in Britain.
You can't take away the fact that they exploited what they had well though!
On 12 Sep 2018 at 12:09pm Mark wrote:
I'm not sure that being right or wrong enters into it Andymac. History and economics are both all about shades of grey. Somewhere between the deliberately provocative position that I adopted (without using any cheap insults) and your's lies the truth.
On 12 Sep 2018 at 1:10pm jake wrote:
It was well worth mentioning Cuba Mark, in this somewhat strained debate. Of course nowhere is perfect but Cuban people have pride and hold their heads high. Their health service is extraordinarily good as is the inspired education system. And the Cuban government feeds its poor. Joy is found without being lost in induced desire for consumer trash and gadgets, and its citizens are certainly not whipped into 'consuming' by the 'markets'. The entire value system could not be further from the nastiness of our needlessly unequal society.
On 12 Sep 2018 at 3:56pm happiness wrote:
Thankfully the majority of us do not aspire to be like Cuba, China or the USSR.
On 12 Sep 2018 at 7:39pm Andymac wrote:
Mark - I realise it doesn't suit you, but unfortunately right and wrong are relevant. Accepted historical facts are right, made up stuff is wrong. Your preference for the latter over the former doesn't change that.
And as for Cuba? That tropical paradise where the government has had to forcibly prevent the population from leaving? That Cuba? (Sorry, another of those terribly inconvenient facts).
On 12 Sep 2018 at 10:36pm Clifford wrote:
Mark wrote: 'And that Happiness is proof perfect that a (rapidly dwindling) number of people continue to have blinkered Brexit thinking.'
Where did you get that information, Mark? From the polls? The same polls that told you Remain were going to win in 2016 and that May was going to get a three figure majority last year?
On 13 Sep 2018 at 7:25am Mark wrote:
Not really Andymac. All history is necessarily always wrong (Karl Popper). This is thinking in the grey as opposed to the black and white. Black and white thinking would be something along the lines of "read history but don't read your history (Owen Jones) read mine because mine is right".
On 13 Sep 2018 at 8:13am Andymac wrote:
Not at all Mark. The way to test your own beliefs is to hear the views and arguments of those who disagree with you. Not a view popular on the Corbynista left, but a sound approach to life imho, and in this case the lack of any actual substance in or basis for your argument confirms my position. You do know the difference between a real historian and a political polemicist like Owen Jones btw? Doesn't seem clear that you do.
On 13 Sep 2018 at 9:23am Mark wrote:
Oh this is just ridiculous. You've missed my point twice in one post. I'm out.
On 14 Sep 2018 at 8:30am Just Saying wrote:
It's been a 10 year recession as inflation has outstripped wage growth, yes "factually" there has been no recession since 2009, but when wages decrease for 10 years straight, as far as the average person is concerned it's a recession.
@Happiness wage growth of 2.9% over inflation of 2.5%, hardly "well above inflation", a 0.4% payrise after 10 years of decreasing wage is hardly "cracking".
Toodle pips, I'm off to have a jaunty ride around my fields.