On 16 May 2017 at 8:35pm ClarifiedButler wrote:
Just interested in whether anyone has some interesting stories or whatever about the Gage family being the biggest landowners in the area...seems as though they must have their fair share of harmless enough gossip to be shared if they are going to own half the county!
On 16 May 2017 at 8:55pm Feline wrote:
On 16 May 2017 at 9:01pm Greengages wrote:
On 16 May 2017 at 10:17pm Redcoat wrote:
Only that their ancestor lost us the colonies 240 years ago.
On 16 May 2017 at 11:00pm + wrote:
A thread evidently inspired by spite and envy. Not nice.
On 17 May 2017 at 12:24am Horseman7 wrote:
Or possibly inspired by all those pulled sugar ribbons.
On 17 May 2017 at 8:19am Grunge wrote:
On 17 May 2017 at 9:16am Tom Pain wrote:
How much land do they own? Perhaps you could clarify that for a start, butler.
On 17 May 2017 at 9:38am Billy wrote:
So flippin what if he is wealthy? I can't believe so many people have such big chips on their shoulders. Take a bit of personal responsibility. Get off your backsides, get out and do something useful with your lives.
On 17 May 2017 at 9:52am Nomates wrote:
Billy I'm moved to point out the silliness of the concept of taking personal responsibility and getting off one's backside in the context of a thread about the landed gentry. For good or bad, by definition they do neither so it's not a great argument in their favour.
Unless you can think of a way of taking their land from them, or magicing up some extra land, no amount of 'graft' or riding about on bicycles looking for jobs is going to undo the fact that they own and will continue to own a large part of the common wealth, which means that you do not.
On 17 May 2017 at 10:03am Feline wrote:
Neither the house no the land belongs to the Gage's personally. Like most large inherited estates it's in trust and run by the trustees. The family only have a minority say in what happens now. Don't get me wrong, I'm not pleading on their behalf at all. Just pointing out that it's a bit more complicated than first appears.
On 17 May 2017 at 10:36am Deja Vu wrote:
Thank god you typed that Nomates, exactly what I wanted to reply with and very succinctly put.
95% of resources have been passed from generation to generation by 0.01% of the population for many hundreds of years, usually paying no tax (or inheritance tax like us mere mortals) along the way.
On 17 May 2017 at 10:37am @Feline wrote:
And guess who the beneficiaries are... Minority say my arse.
On 17 May 2017 at 12:39pm Billy wrote:
I earned everything I own by grafting and am quite content. My brother in law however has never worked (perpetual student) yet by dint of marriage has now inherited a huge farm in Ireland. Am I bothered?
On 17 May 2017 at 12:52pm @Billy wrote:
I can guarantee he paid inheritance tax on it, do you see the difference?
Plus I bet (even though you describe it as "huge") it's far from huge, property and land owned by the landed gentry literally changes the balance of society (and is not subject to the normal rules).
On 17 May 2017 at 12:56pm Billy wrote:
Envy - a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck.
Get over it!
On 17 May 2017 at 1:06pm Ed Can Do wrote:
The Gages own most of Glynde, all of Firle and pretty much everything along the A27 as far as Alfriston. The land is all in Trust but that's just a wheeze to swerve paying inheritance tax.
On 17 May 2017 at 1:18pm Frak wrote:
Ed - Glynde is mostly owned by Glynde estates - so the hampden family. Similar situation though.
On 17 May 2017 at 1:20pm @Billy wrote:
Back at you Billy:
A failure of social intelligence in which a person is easily tricked or manipulated into an ill-advised course of action.
The average Conservative voter?
On 17 May 2017 at 1:23pm Local Resident wrote:
The distinction between ownership and management may or may not be relevant, depending on what angle you wish to take. The Trustees own most of the land, from Southerham Grey Pit all the way to the outskirts of Alfriston, except what falls into the ownership of the Glynde Estate. Most of the property is occupied by Tenants, most of whom are tenant farmers (for example, Middle Farm). Lord Gage himself owns very little property, and he rents that out to other tenants. Firle Place is owned by the Trustees (and is no longer lived in on a day-to-day basis by Lord and Lady Gage - they live nearby, though, in another property owned by the Trustees). The Trust is, however, managed in a way that very much looks after the interests and wishes of the Gage family.
On 17 May 2017 at 1:32pm Local Resident wrote:
And it mustn't be forgotten that there is another big estate in Northamptonshire (at Fawsley) that forms part of the Gage outbuildings.
On 17 May 2017 at 1:34pm Deus vult wrote:
God made them high and lowly
And ordered their estate.
On 17 May 2017 at 1:54pm Clifford wrote:
The law locks up the man or woman
Who steals the goose from off the common
But leaves the greater villain loose
Who steals the common from off the goose
The law demands that we atone
When we take things we do not own
But leaves the lords and ladies fine
Who take things that are yours and mine
On 17 May 2017 at 1:55pm Andymac wrote:
I presume that the objection some people have to the Gages (whom neither I nor I imagine most of their critics have ever met) is that they own more stuff than most of the rest of us, and therefore are felt to have more than their fair share. Having done a bit of quick googling, the most recent stats I can find (2014 from the ONS) show that average UK household net wealth is/was just over £225k (value of property minus mortgage, plus savings/investments/pensions/cash). Logic suggests that any UK household worth more than that also has more than its fair share. So maybe Lewes' middle class egalitarians might like to do a quick calculation of their own net wealth, and for those who come out above this average, write out a cheque for the balance (presumably to HMRC) to assuage their inevitable guilt for being sooooo greedy.
On 17 May 2017 at 2:19pm @Andymac wrote:
I can't speak for others, but my objections is that they don't pay their fair share of tax.
If people don't pay taxes, society does not functions, when society breaks down the knobs will be the first targets.
On 17 May 2017 at 2:51pm Andymac wrote:
I understand your point @Andymac. So hands up everybody who at a personal or family level voluntarily pays the taxman more than they are legally obliged to. Anyone? Anyone?
On 17 May 2017 at 3:11pm Perkin wrote:
Both glide and fire estates have become pretty cutthroat property companies since the rise in property prices and rentals.They just take the money now without even a nod to notion it just landed in their laps.
On 17 May 2017 at 3:46pm bobobob wrote:
When you are wealthy you can pay expensive tax accountants to make sure the amount of tax you 'are legally obliged to pay' is very small.
So when facebook pays £5k tax it's not because they only made £30k profit, it's because a tax accountant got paid lots to create clever tax avoidance schemes.
Last year hmrc GAVE them a £13 million tax credit to offset against future losses. How do you feel about people getting benefits for doing nothing? We just gave facebook £13milliion
This is the objection.
On 17 May 2017 at 3:52pm Nothing to see here.... wrote:
Actually Facebook is very useful for keeping old folks occupied and stopping them from doing anything dangerous like reading history or philosophy.Like TV it's used to pacify those who would otherwise notice their utility as tax cows.
On 17 May 2017 at 4:09pm @Andymac wrote:
You're either incredibly wealthy or incredibly stupid, they do not follow the same tax rules as us, saying "more than they are legally obliged to" completely misses the point - they have little legal obligation because "they do not follow the same tax rules are us" - why are you not getting this simple concept?.
Unless you have multiple companies in multiple territories, you make up the shortfall.
The fact that this seems to make you happy is fairly self explanatory (I'm betting you're incredibly stupid)?
On 17 May 2017 at 4:18pm Andymac wrote:
Bobobob - I repeat my challenge: hands up everybody who voluntarily pays the taxman more than they are legally obliged to. Haven't heard anyone say 'yes, I do!' yet. If tax legislation is poorly drafted, then expect that to be exploited, or close the legal loopholes, don't blame people for (legally) minimising their tax burden, either at a corporate or personal level. I have no idea what the particular circumstances of the Gages are, but very simplistically if I am given a choice between legally ensuring that my children (or whoever I choose) get more of my money when I die rather than paying it to the taxman in inheritance tax (not sure in reality I'll get near the threshold but leaving that aside) then frankly it's a no brainer.
On 17 May 2017 at 4:19pm Curate wrote:
Gauge not lest ye be gauged.
On 17 May 2017 at 4:23pm Andy mac wrote:
Only the small people and mugs pay tax. My accountant looks after my affairs very nicely.
On 17 May 2017 at 4:51pm Nothing to see here.... wrote:
Problem is HMRC can't afford accountants that are as good as those available on the free market.
On 17 May 2017 at 4:56pm bobobob wrote:
As someone who works in the financial world I can tell you that it doesn't matter what you do with the rules. There will always be boundaries and grey areas that can be exploited. Not to say that improvements wouldn't make it more difficult but why play cat and mouse?
Having an overall tax like the Alternative Minimum Tax in USA which is a somewhat effective way to ensure overall tax % are fair would be a start.
Doesn't win many votes though so don't hold your breath.
On 17 May 2017 at 5:04pm Andymac wrote:
Bobobob - absolutely valid point, and I agree, there will always be challenges and no system will ever be perfect or loop-hole free. But as you imply the imperfect but best achievable answer lies in addressing the tax system, not in expecting people or businesses to pay more than the minimum they legally can, and then (as some people seem to do, present company excepted) getting terribly terribly angry and shouty about it, as if that behaviour is some great surprise.
On 17 May 2017 at 6:26pm And thats a fact wrote:
Marquis of Abergavenny used to to own rather a lot between Lewes & Brighton, Gage had his patch south of the A27 & Viscount H had useful bit north of the A27 , Christie, is not short of an Acre or two either but how they run their tax affairs is their affair, at least the stately homes didnt disappear under the Labour Governments after the war with their TAX TAX TAX attitude, Lost a lot of irreplaceable heritage back then and they didnt sort the economy then either. and thats a fact