On 19 May 2016 at 6:15pm Captain Pragmatic. wrote:
If anybody has n`t realised it yet ,this whole debate is between the lesser of two evils.Even supporters of the remain campaign like myself think that the EU is FAR from perfect but we are not stupid enough to believe that life under the extreme right wing cabal of Farage,Johnson and the Thatcherite wing of the Tory party , would be better for ordinary people is deluding themselves..This whole debate is less about being a member of the European Union and much more about which kind of capitalist society we wish to live in..A social democracy with a decent level of public services or a free market free for all in which workers rights are trampled under foot in the name of Neo Liberal ideology.The debate between these two modes is being played out in the EU itself If we want to influence the future of the EU, which as a left winger I would wish to do the n we have to stay in.The EU which whether we leave or stay,, is going to continue to extremely influential needs change .It need s to be more democratic and needs to look after the needs of ordinary people a lot more than the big companies,but on balance it seems clear to me that we can achieve the kind of country that most of us want to live in inside rather than outside the EU. I have soken to many mainland Europeans and they want the same things we do,We need to get together with them to achieve our common aims not turn our backs on them and retreat into some kind of Britain First right wing nightmare.
On 19 May 2016 at 6:34pm Ironic wrote:
Stupid posts like the above fail to see how the far right are on the march because of the EU for the first time in decades. Far from being a provider of cohesion the EU has sown seeds of disunity and discord through it's anti democratic behaviour.
Funny how the remainers cry that leave is neoliberal - why then have leave Tory MP's tabled a NHS saving motion today to amend pro EU cameron's Queen's speech in order to stop the EU TTIP deal being able to allow corporations to sue the NHS.
Supported by Corbyn and other anti TTIP MP's this shows that the pro EU movement funded by Goldman Sachs are seeking to impose privatisation's and austerity across the continent while helping multinationals and corporations.
On 19 May 2016 at 7:28pm SHS wrote:
This referendum certainly is not about Farage or Corbyn. It is about whether England can contnue to fly the flag as a democracy - right or left wing as the electorate may choose - or whether to give up our independence and be ruled by a group of people in Brussels. Sadly if we stay in the EU we certainly will NOT be able to influence anything, surely then last few years have shown that all too clearly.
On 19 May 2016 at 7:32pm Metatron wrote:
Remember this; a Tory Government is only for a term and can be kicked out.
Continued membership of the EU will be for life.
On 19 May 2016 at 7:33pm Earl of Lewes wrote:
Well, I'm glad to see that Captain Pragmatic has finally put his cards on the table and made a considered argument, rather than writing puerile posts lampooning the Leave campaign. He raises some good points and I share his concerns, but I hope that if we leave, the whole edifice will crumble and Europeans can build something better. The EU has justified supporting an iniquitous economic system by giving us a few crumbs in the form of the living wage, maximum working hours etc, but it's a drop in the ocean and the corporate agenda remains. I'm not happy with the idea of being on the same side as Boris and Nigel, but I think they're largely irrelevant in the great scheme of things. Let's leave the EU then fight for social justice here. We shouldn't shy away from doing the right thing because we might not like some of the short term consequences. That would be like saying "Don't give women the vote, because they're more likely to vote Tory."
On 19 May 2016 at 8:06pm Convenient wrote:
@EoL I like you more and more ... that was about the most coherent post there's been on here on this issue , I swear when people see those rambling long posts by some who seem to think that we assume they have a clue what they're talking about , we in fact don't bother to read to the end of their lists of applicable statistics and percentages . You make your points well and concisely , thank you .
Is it possible we have the balls to leave and maybe other countries follow ?
On 20 May 2016 at 9:36am ProfYaffle wrote:
"Sadly if we stay in the EU we certainly will NOT be able to influence anything, surely then last few years have shown that all too clearly"
That's just absolute rubbish.
We did not want to join the Euro - we did not have to. We were not compelled to by Brussels.
We did not want to join Schengen - We did not have to. We were not compelled to by Brussels.
We did not want increased judicial and police integration - we did not have to. We were not compelled to by Brussels.
We wanted a border-free single market in goods and services. We got the first and we are getting the second.
It seems to me that our partners bend over backwards to give us what we want. Our influence would seem quite significant to me.
"t is about whether England can contnue to fly the flag as a democracy "
Is the reference to England accidental? However, it's rubbish. On anything that really matters - foreign affairs, domestic policy, budgets etc - the power is firmly and completely with Parliament. Only about 10-20% of laws originate in Brussels - most gold plated by Wesminster.
I do care about these issues but to be honest having a mortgage and a young family... it's the economic side that concerns me more.