On Sat 13 Jun at 2:50pm Tom Pain wrote:
The briefest glance at Wikipedia on the history of African countries will show any one that slavery was enthusiastically practiced long before a white face was ever seen there. You can see how they practiced colonialism and ethnic cleansing and ran the whole gamut of unpleasant habits practiced by humans everywhere. ALL lives DON'T matter to the psychopathic rulers of the world throughout recorded history 99% of the time. It's time to look at reality outside of the media bubble that cocoons us and the fictions of the political parties that divide us. And, my particular hobby horse, how we are all debt slaves, the most cunning and widespread form of the slavery.
On Sun 14 Jun at 7:38am David Stanley wrote:
Don't forget there are slave markets in Libya now. Many Arab counties have slaves in domestic service as well.
By your definition I'm a slave owner because I own assets and equities that bear interest!
On Sun 14 Jun at 8:55am Nevillman wrote:
Interesting post Tom. You don't have to know much about history to realise how cruel men can be to other men and how tribal we can be at times causing us to not even see other groups of people as people at all.
Times change and so can people. Globally, the present day is much less violent than it has ever been. You have a much greater chance of not dying violently at the hands of others (or being subjugated) now than at any other time, certainly in recorded history. Read Steven Pinker, the better angel of our nature, for a full explanation of this. We are, at least temporarily, more enlightened than ever before as to man's inhumanity to man. Pinker puts forward a number of possible reasons for this. Some would say that that may be due to a better understanding of our nature and acknowledgement of past wrongs and this is I think part of the rationale behind the black lives matter movement. Others wonder why we should we have to accept guilt for slavery when it has been going on for ever by other tribes and this seems to be behind the counter, all lives matter movement.
It's a real shame that the whole thing seems to be another occasion for us to accentuate our differences of opinion. I think we all know there will be hot heads on both sides who are just happy to have found another cause to get excited about and respond to their own tribal instincts. Please note I am certainly not accusing all people with views on this of being hot heads.
Your last point is interesting Tom. I'm sure my old sociology lecturers would have been telling me the whole thing is actually a class issue. I'm not sure I still believe that capitalism enslaves us all but I do think it captures us. Maybe you are right David and all beneficiaries of capitalism are slave owners. It seems that slavery helped us to become a relatively wealthy capitalist country. You must decide for yourself whether you are a beneficiary or slave of capitalism.
On Sun 14 Jun at 4:17pm Tom Pain wrote:
I used to think we are more enlightened nowadays but when I considered that I was born only five years after World War 2 I had to change my opinion. The behaviour of both sides was appalling,that of our side only gradually coming to light, and still mostly obscure. The cultural, there's a misnomer, war in China happened in my lifetime, sixty million exterminated, the Khmer rouge in Cambodia,the Vietnam war, Indonesia,east Timor , Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. Not the epitome of enlightened eh? The sociologists were imbued with very Marxist principles viz class war, which is part of the problem but by no means all. The black lives matter movement is just being used to enhance the massive economic and social damage the lockdown has and will cause to hasten the world economic forum's "great reset" the "fourth world" the "new green deal" all the great sounding utopian ideas, all coming from the same people who created the system that caused the world inequality in the first place. Look at South Africa, the poor are even poorer now they have black rule. It proves the point that governments are just the tool by which the Masters of Wealth rule the people. Lenin said "we will win by slogans" He was right but didn't mention the finance that bought the weapons supplied by the western bankers that did the trick. David, we're all caught up in the web of debt. See Catherine Austin First for your investment strategy!
On Tue 16 Jun at 8:43am Nevillman wrote:
I do actually accept that we are now living in slightly more enlightened times than ever before Tom. If you look at possible signals of this enlightenment like the number of people in absolute poverty, chance of violent death, wars, numbers in slavery, infant mortality, life expectancy then things have never been better despite most people's inaccurate perception that things are worse than ever. Of course things are nowhere near perfect, there are still wars, man is still capable of appalling cruelty, we may well be slaves of capitalism, the improvements may only be temporary and you have to consider the enormous environmental cost that we are likely to be paying soon but it is still true now that most people's lives are better than ever (notwithstanding present lockdown).
I think that black lives matter is part of that enlightenment. There is a realisation that we should try to stop slavery in Libya or wherever but we can only condemn it if we accept our past role in slavery and that we have benefited from it.
I've tried to unpick what you are saying towards the end of your post Tom but lack the intellect to fully understand it. It does come over as another example of your belief in a huge conspiracy run by the masters of wealth whoever they may be. By all means try to explain it again in other words if you wish.
On Tue 16 Jun at 11:12am Tom Pain wrote:
Towards the end I'm not talking about a conspiracy as such but an automatic reaction. If you've worked hard all your life to build something up, you're not going to be happy about some jokers taking it away. Such is the Empire. With all the usual shuffling and competition the same extended families have dominated this country for a thousand years and they're not going to give up now. The means of control are now financial and extend worldwide. You talk about ending slavery in Libya,well it had ended until we destroyed the place. Behind all the propaganda Gaddafi turned the place from the proverbial third world sh!thole into the most developed country in Africa,though you won't read that in the newspapers. Isn't it a strange coincidence how every country with resources we want is ruled by an evil,murderous dictator?