On 5 Jul 2016 at 9:15am Clifford wrote:
I know many Forum readers are anti-Guardian, but there's an interesting article on the referendum from an Establishment point of view that says some interesting things:
'Stronger In became the holding company for a liberal centrist political concept that had been transmitted in varying forms through the rise of New Labour and the ascent of Cameron. This had been the bastion of political orthodoxy for a generation, but its foundations had been corroded. Parliament’s status never recovered from the expenses scandal. The financial crisis led not to a redistribution of power and greater economic security but to austerity, coupled with apparent immunity for the elite from any consequences of their prior mismanagement. The unique opportunity of a referendum was to give voters the option of punishing a generation of politics, regardless of party allegiance. Those who chose a different path are now left without leadership, barely recognising their own country; the stateless tribe of Remainia.'
Check it out here »
On 5 Jul 2016 at 9:28am coetzee Powell wrote:
We just have to Dance with the devil.
On 5 Jul 2016 at 9:47am Historian wrote:
Yep !! Its called |Democracy folks !! WE still have, and hopefully will be able to hang on to it.
On 5 Jul 2016 at 10:26am Stewpot wrote:
The Remain camp was unquestionably made up of the Blairites. It's important to remember that Blairites come from the center ground of both Lab and Con with a sprinkling of Lib Dem on top.
These people are out and out capitalists with a social conscious. The other strange thing about them is because they have qualifications up to their eye balls they think they are all ways right and will never admit to being wrong. Hypocrisy is s staple part of being a Blairite and ability to patronise is vital.
The problem we have is that more of our young than ever are going to university and due to the high number of Blairite lecturers more and more are being let loose on society.
A great insight into these people is demonstrated on Yoitube. Search for clips of Saturdays In Europe March and to the responses given to the questions on why they wish to remain in.
On 5 Jul 2016 at 12:10pm Youtube wrote:
I've seen a few of the clips, absolutely mental...
The fact is it's pretty split, 1/3 voted in, 1/3 voted out, 1/3 didn't bother, result was out so there's always going to be people that are upset.
But the process was fair, the majority did win, whatever you think of the EU it has downsides as well as upsides and no one is fully aware of what those sides are (calm down and see what happens).
I understand they're unhappy and want to protest but some of the videos I saw show that these people will not be happy unless they get their own way, very aggressive, not open to others opinions, not willing to consider that maybe they lost a fair contest...
On 5 Jul 2016 at 2:40pm Remainer wrote:
But it wasn't a fair contest. The 'Remain' camp led a lousy campaign, but the 'Leave' camp ran a totally disgusting and disingenuous campaign which relied on an ultra-right wing press to print its many lies. The supine broadcast media were cowed into never calling them out on the lies. I get that a few more people wanted to leave than remain although if you watched Panorama last night, their reasons were not actually much to do with the EU. The real bummer is that 'Leave' just wanted to 'Leave' for their own personal agendas and had absolutely no ideas or plan of what to do if they won ..... That's why most of us are extremely angry - not because we lost, but because they have left us with an unholy bugger's muddle and mess. The result is a right wing hard line Tory party still in charge who will not address the genuine gripes that those wanting to leave had. We have as yet, no real opposition to stopping the neo-liberals who are still in charge.
On 5 Jul 2016 at 3:01pm youtube wrote:
I feel your pain I also voted in, but regardless of how bad both campaigns were it was still fair, both sides had the same amount of time to get their points across. We all know most out votes were a protest at 50 years of bad government but it doesn't change the fact we lost. If anything remain had an unfair advantage due to the brochures.
On 5 Jul 2016 at 4:05pm Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
Stewpot, there are many Remainers who, like me, loathe Blair with a passion!
We're looking forward to the publication of Chilcot later in the week.Hopefully, the war criminal will get what he deserves.
On 5 Jul 2016 at 5:14pm Blame Cameron wrote:
If you read the article, it would appear that the Tory Remainians were too concerned with keeping their party together after the vote to come out with personal attacks on Brexiteer Tories or to call them on their lies. To call the contest unfair though smacks of petulance. People don't need to justify their reasons for how they vote, there was no outcry that people voted Tory at the last general election for the "Wrong" reasons for example.
If you must get angry with anyone, get angry with Dodgy Dave for holding the thing in the first place, or get angry with all the cretins who voted the Tories in last time to allow them to hold the referendum. Hell, you could even blame Tony Blair and his advisors for putting the country on a political path that courts the opinion of the metropolitan elite and ignores the rest of the country, a concept that was always going to fail at some point because there's only so much terrible government the population outside of London (And apparently Lewes) will put up with before they kick back.
On 5 Jul 2016 at 5:25pm Chippy wrote:
this was areal chip on the shoulder vote wasn't it,it's becoming clearer everyday.
On 5 Jul 2016 at 6:18pm Remainian wrote:
Cameron takes some of the blame but also much sympathy for having given everything to his cause including his own future. Conservatives were not kind to each other
That Corbyn was a dead loss the last and most important reason for the disaster personelle –wise, hardlky needs to be said ( expectations , to be fair were never high) . He has never believed in the EU and even if he did he is frankly just too stupid to achieve anything . Even if he were not stupid his Palaeozoic International Marxism is unlikely to appeal to the new UKIP voters
New Labour`s policy of encouraging mass immigrations form the sub continent was clearly misguided, to some extent , but I believe the bad outcomes can be addressed good will; realism and action. That of course was the most important reason or the vote, the presence of Poles was of relatively small importance as we can tell by the regional variation i voting patterns
I agree that to complain about the outright lies told by Brexit seems like petulance although a comparison with the last election is bizarre. We must accept that there has been a decision to leave the EU however utterly moronic that may be . Morons are , after all, people
There has not , however been any decision to leave the single market or forgoe a sort of Norway with bits solution . Given the closeness of the result no such conclusion can be made and any solution must , have any mandate be taken to the country and then go though the houses of Parliament and Lords
That was how we went in , that is the law and had anything else been intended MPs could have made the referendum binding , they did not .
Aside from the legal position there is clearly a difference between a democracy and a dictatorship on the back of a dubious plebiscite, ask Mr Mugabe . The minority cannot be trampled under foot and no PM should sieze powers they do not have to press forward with extreme interpretations of the referendum .
The fact that sufficient numbers of the Brexit vote already changed their mind to alter the outcome is an interesting backdrop to this discussion about democracy
On 5 Jul 2016 at 6:24pm Bob wrote:
YOU LOST. GET OVER IT YOU SAD PATHTIC PEOPLE. The majority who bothered to vote voted to leave thank God. Get over your stupid tantrums. We lost & I don't like it. Boo hook.
On 5 Jul 2016 at 6:47pm A Person wrote:
Hello Bob. I'd really really like to know what you're hoping for now, now that you've "won". How do you think your life will be changed, in say five years time? And were you expecting someone to have an actual plan?
I'm really interested. My reading of the fall out from the last twelve days is that it appears that everything promised by the "experts" is coming to pass while the people who spun an entire web of lies which convinced many to vote leave have all abandoned ship. I watched the evidence given to the Treasury committee today by a group of constitutional lawyers who were absolutely damning about the future. So please, tell me why I should be pleased about this result.
Check it out here »
On 5 Jul 2016 at 7:31pm Project Understatement wrote:
In fact the predictions of the remain camp are proving to have been optimistic ......
On 5 Jul 2016 at 7:34pm Hilarious wrote:
suicide or nuffink!!
On 5 Jul 2016 at 10:31pm Sussex Dim wrote:
Thankfully we live in a democracy, a beautiful and elegant system wherein we are all at liberty to vote for whatever the media barons tell us to. We are free to be cajoled, berated and lied to, for the sake of a handful of powerful business and political careerists’ interests.
Perhaps you’d rather we had a balanced and disinterested media, or honest politicians who’s primary objective was to serve the public interest. Pfft!
On 6 Jul 2016 at 8:45am Michael Caine wrote:
You were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off.
On 6 Jul 2016 at 12:22pm John Stockdale wrote:
I'm with ‘A Person’. The Remain experts have been proved right and the Leave campaign was based on lies and deception. The pound has sunk by 12% which will trigger inflation and the country's credit rating has been slashed meaning we'll start paying higher interest on our £1.5tn debt. So, it's 'hello again' to stagflation like in the 70s. Rather than having £350m more per week to spend on the NHS, Osborne has abandoned the plan for a balanced budget and will now introduce even more austerity, this time probably cutting some of the protected services: education, defence, health and pensioners. The promises made by Leave that all the EU regional grants and agricultural subsidies will continue to be met can never materialise. If we expel all the EU immigrants, we lose their positive contribution to taxes that support our ageing population.
Whether or not you believe a marginal democratic majority is negated because the electorate was deceived, it seems to me we are now looking at a disaster. On the day when Chilcot has documented the flawed path that led to the democratic decision of Parliament to back the Iraq War, we have to ask if the 300 majority of MPs who supported Remain should endorse a flawed democratic vote in the Referendum and trigger Article 50, when the threat of leaving has so clearly had the opposite effect to that intended.
This month has also seen the 100th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme. A sound tactical plan to break the deadlock by blasting through the German lines with a week-long barrage and huge mines failed on its first day with 20,000 fatalities. Having lost any element of surprise the generals kept blasting on for another 140 days until they had clocked up a million casualties for no significant military gain. Is Brexit now to be left in the care of latter day WW1 generals?
On 6 Jul 2016 at 2:12pm Stagflation wrote:
I thought that was a male deer farting .........until I discovered Smirnoff. ( 70's joke )
On 7 Jul 2016 at 8:42pm Remainer wrote:
Come on Bob. Answer ' a Person'. What have you got? Please tell us what you see as so terrific now for you personally. We would like to know how your life will be materially changed by the result. How will it be better? Just asking .....
On 8 Jul 2016 at 1:41pm Dubious wrote:
Yes Bob, come on, tell us. It's obvious you believe things are going to be better, so just share it with us. From where I am sitting, it's all going t1ts up. So please persuade me otherwise.