On Tue 20 Oct at 3:22pm Tom Pain wrote:
Or the Disease of Politics
Thinking about the kind ferret's remark that to agree with my opinion on counter covid restrictions constitutes~"pandering to the extreme right libertarian faction of the Tory party, speaking the language of arch capitalist shareholding wealthy", made me wonder what covid has to do with politics. It also made me wonder why the top 1% are seeing their wealth increasing exponentially since the lockdown.
The disease of politics has proved far more virulent than the corona virus if we can't say what we think without some bigoted fundamentalist declaring them politically incorrect. It is also to be regretted that it can cause someone in Britain to get overexcited about a foreign politician.
The sooner politics gets out of the way of medicine the better for all concerned. It seems to me that the economic damage caused by lockdown is an absolute windfall to the super capitalists whose vast wealth makes them immune to it's effects and whose cause ferret is furthering in his own eccentric fashion.
On Wed 21 Oct at 10:25am Nevillman wrote:
I can see how investors in some online businesses are doing well out of lockdown Tom and accept that very little will affect the super rich but how is the lockdown an 'absolute windfall' to the 'super capitalists'? I know you like a good conspiracy Tom and I'm not saying you are wrong but I am struggling to see exactly how covid and dealing with it by lockdowns is in anyone's particular economic or political interest. Please explain.
On Wed 21 Oct at 2:23pm Green Sleeves wrote:
Oh boy, prepare for a lesson on the Rothschilds and George Soros....
On Wed 21 Oct at 10:05pm Basil wrote:
'The sooner politics gets out of the way of medicine the better for all concerned.'
Health is a political issue. Thaty's why we've got an NHS and the US hasn't. It's a political decision.
On Fri 23 Oct at 10:28pm Tom Pain wrote:
I'll leave that to you pancetta,you do such a lovely job.
Most of the government grants are going to the big players as the small to medium businesses are going to the wall, Nev. The bust businesses will sell to the vulture funds for pennies. Banks will foreclose unpaid mortgages, just give it time and a few more lockdowns. The central banks are gearing up their digital money and will take over the other banks, they're the regulators! Everything is centralising more and more quickly. It's not a conspiracy, it's business as usual. And Basil, that's the problem with the NHS, it's a "too big to fail". One huge organisation is a magnet for all the sharks. Lots of small public health units would be much more difficult to corrupt by the multinational pharmaceutical companies.
On Sat 24 Oct at 9:05am Nevillman wrote:
I thought not.
On Sat 24 Oct at 11:26am Ferret wrote:
I hate to contradict old Tom, but financial support has been available to businesses of all sizes according to Gov.UK. It stands to reason that big companies with huge turnovers will get bigger handouts than small businesses. I have no idea what percentage of the billions are going to the "big players", and I'm guessing old Tom doesn't know either. It's just fits his usual agenda. The world is one big conspiracy to screw the little man.
Check it out here »
On Sat 24 Oct at 11:37am Ferret wrote:
Correction: It just fits his usual agenda.
And I just got an email from Maria Caulfield (no I'm not a Tory voter!) reminding us of how generous they are with our money, giving £850,000 to Newhaven Fort to keep it going, And didn't the Bluebell Railway recently get a big handout. These are definitely not "big players". Perhaps someone knows of small businesses who are getting support.
On Sat 24 Oct at 4:28pm Tom Pain wrote:
I see you've been honing your debating technique,Nev.
Contradiction is an anathema to me too Ferret but I'll do my reluctant best I don't recall saying the government was not helping the little man,just who it was helping most. You have mounted such a spirited defence of right wing policies throughout this crisis of democracy that I wonder why you didn't vote Tory. As you say they've been generous with our money but I'm curious to know how they got hold of it, maybe they'll extract it retrospectively in taxes. The reason the left came into being was to defend the little man against being screwed by the capitalists so I understand your jeering tone, it's well in keeping with the covert fascism of the progressive outlook.
On Sat 24 Oct at 4:56pm Dreamer wrote:
Bingo! I have a Bingo!
I got my stamp for TP accusing someone of something he has just been accused of by that person (it is admittedly almost guaranteed to happen, but it amazes me every time).
And I admit my 2x2 Bingo card was a bit small and boring, but the other stamp I was able to collect in thus thread was "TP is challenged to provide evidence of his claims and fails to do so". Again, nearly certain to happen.
On Sat 24 Oct at 6:33pm Nevillman wrote:
Thanks for the feedback on my debating technique Tom but I have to point out that if I was after help with how to debate I probably wouldn't come to you first. Making statements that I couldn't justify, ignoring points and questions that other people make and being offensive are not generally regarded as sound debating techniques anywhere but the house of commons.
Do you have any idea what a sentence like "the central banks are gearing up their digital money and will take over the other banks, they're the regulators" is even meant to mean? You might have a point about the lockdown favouring the wealthy and I was genuinely hoping to find out your arguments not get fed the usual nonsense. Keep at it Tom. Surely you can find an argument somewhere to justify it. I am sure there are lots of valid points to be made and we need a critical eye on the government more than ever.
On Sat 24 Oct at 9:46pm Ferret wrote:
Tom, you sound like those passionate Corbynistas who labelled everyone who didn't support their beloved Jeremy as a pink Tory. I have never defended "right wing policies" in the context of the political response to the pandemic. You expressed disapproval of dragging politics into "medicine", and then you politicise every aspect of the measures adopted to combat the virus, in spite of the fact that the vast majority of scientific advisers insist that those measures are essential to reduce infections, hospital admissions and deaths, and to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed. It is right wing politicians and their media mouthpieces which are demanding relaxation, or non-imposition, of the scientifically determined amelioration strategies. You are their mouthpiece on Lewes Forum.
And what a joke it is that you feel the need to tell us all that "the left came into being", as if it was something organic, when the truth is that ordinary people, and some intellectuals, fought against the odds to build the Labour Party and other movements of the left. And you are not of the left. You are just a cranky old contrarian.
On Sat 24 Oct at 11:32pm Tom Pain wrote:
If that's not organic, what is? Now all those hard fought for rights are being thrown away. The lockdown was supposed to be temporary, the NHS was never overwhelmed,but it went on. WHY? And if you believe what the Bullingdon Boy says, I give up. I'm very contrary to tyranny, from the right or left, it's all the same to me. Do you think they're going to announce it? Track and Trace in a deadly contagion would be understandable but with a bad flu year? Is your credulity not a little stretched at that? Have you seen the protocols for the vaccine? Does it have to stop the virus being infectious? No. Does it have to prevent severe illness? No. It has to prevent mild illness. And we're paying a fortune for that. Oh yes, an unlicensed vaccine with no liability for anyone should you be damaged by a rudimentally tested product for which no one has enough faith in to assume responsibility for. A product which purports to stop you catching a cold! And that nano particle hydrogel in it and the luciferase tattoo, not one of "those" theories but a documented fact. Don't you think Paine with an E would have a little uneasy about such transparent legerdemain? They don't do it in the open.
On Sun 25 Oct at 10:15am Ferret wrote:
The paranoid ravings in full flow. No matter how often you trot out your opinions, and no matter how often they are shot down, you fall back on them. Lockdowns don't work, they don't reduce pressure on the NHS (although it seems they did work as the NHS was never overwhelmed), they don't save lives (although more people are dying now since the lockdown was relaxed), the virus isn't deadly (those 47,000 would have died soon anyway), it's all a plan to control us all (doesn't seem to be working though, does it?) and the vaccine will never work, and it's not needed anyway!
You'll end up in a padded cell if you don't see someone soon.
On Sun 25 Oct at 10:17am Ferret wrote:
And all because you don't want to wear a mask...
On Sun 25 Oct at 11:37am Dreamer wrote:
Proven wrong at every turn by all the data and actual science out there, TP starts throwing fullblown conspiracy theories out there. No need for him to provide evidence. Luciferase tattoos, really? What's next? Chemtrails?
This disease has been shown repeatedly to be at least 3 times more lethal than other pneumonias and over ten times more lethal than seasonal influenzas. I have posted links to much of the evidence and the studies proving thus repeatedly.
Any time TP was asked to. Bring evidence for any of his claims he failed (no, a blog post or quote from the prime minister does not count as evidence, and he has indeed done both of that). The closest was correctly citing CDC data on comorbidities, but then confusing "comorbidity" with "preexisting condition".
All this is a shame as it distracts from the real issues: near complete government failure, relying on failing privitisation, and overpromising everywhere.
Take countries where simple commonsense and effecient responses (masks, isolation on infections, working test and trace, and patience) were applied and you see countries with far fewer deaths and far less damage to their economies.
The only thing I have to say to TP directly is: bring actual evidence or just be quiet. (and I already realize he will do neither).
The real Tom Pain (indeed born without an e) would likely be astounded at thus anti-enlightenment malarkey.
On Sun 25 Oct at 12:22pm Dreamer wrote:
I appreciate that was a very general request, so let's make it more possible more concrete: Luciferase tattoos. What are they, what do the and how do you proposed they will be misused? And of course: Do you have any evidence that they actually exist or bring worked on? Press releases from companies making them, parent applications, scientific articles... All perfectly acceptable forms of evidence for their existence.
On Sun 25 Oct at 1:06pm Ferret wrote:
I wondered how long Mad Tom had been peddling his nonsense, so checked the archive. I was amazed to see it started on March 13th, before the lockdown even began, when Webbo his venerable self exhorted us all to begin social distancing, before even HM Government announced it as policy. How wise that advice was, and how foolish has Tom's response been.
Here's what he wrote in his first comment on the pandemic:
"You know why this is happening now don't you , you sinners? ...It's divine judgement on the evil brexiteers. " God said, you can do what you want but the next time you we me coming you'd better run."(Dylan) It reminds me of the Daily Express headlines which used to amuse me so much predicting apocalyptic weather every other week. This is fear porn, for goodness sake, why are you pimping it? Is this a party political broadcast again? Whose agenda are you pushing this time? Extermination Request? As far as Italy is concerned there are 217 deaths a day from the "normal" flu, how does that grab you? Another thing, there are hundreds of thousands~ you can fact check this~ of Chinese leather workers in Italy. Could that explain some things?"
There's been a slight shift in his thinking, but not a lot. It's not divine judgement now, it's Bill Gates. He's not quoting Dylan songs, now it's Johnson videos. But it's the same old contrary nonsense.
On Sun 25 Oct at 2:05pm Tom Pain wrote:
I've explained the comorbidity question to you before but you keep up this ridiculous pretense of not understanding. You can look up Luciferase yourself I hope. I can see nothing wrong with my old post~here you are shrieking the same chorus of fear, repeating the same ad hoc ad hominems ad nauseum.
On Sun 25 Oct at 2:40pm Dreamer wrote:
TP: you did not actually. You claimed that a document says "preexisting", which it does not. And you were unable to bring any support of this notion. And as I said before: every medical dictionary will provide you with a definition that clearly shows comirbidities are not the same as preexisting conditions. You may well continue insisting they are, but reality doesn't line up with that.
And I did look into the Luciferase Tattoo thing already. Beyond proper tin-hatty blog posts, no information. As you seem to be unwilling to produce any, I suspect you are repeating bits from those blogs?
There is a press release from MIT on their quantum dot stamps to ID vaccinations. But that has nothing to do with luciferase at all. Also nothing with hydrogels.
So, it seems we need to once again conclude that you are talking about things you do not understand even the basics of, let alone any advanced concepts. Definitely not on a level that you are in any way competent to criticise statements made by people who actually know what they are talking about.
So I stand by my previous statement: provide evidence to support your wild ideas, or be quiet. At the very least, don't complain when people call them what they are: conspiracy theories spread by someone who is way out of their depth. Or simply "hogwash".
On Sun 25 Oct at 4:30pm Ferret wrote:
I like it: "ad hoc ad hominems ad nauseum". That's definitely worthy of a pat on the head. Are you sure that you know what it means?
On Sun 25 Oct at 5:25pm Tom Pain wrote:
According to the World Doctors Alliance~At no point was the NHS in danger of being overwhelmed, since may covid wards have been mostly empty and crucially the cover death toll has remained extremely low. We now have hundreds of thousands of so called cases but hardly any sick people.
On Sun 25 Oct at 5:58pm Ferret wrote:
The 1000 a day (and rising) being admitted to hospitals with Covid-19 are "hardly any sick people", eh? Tell that to their families. Of course you will respond by saying that's "hardly any" in the context of a population of 67 million, but each one of them is very sick, and whose lives are as valuable as any others. Unless you have a heart of stone, you must feel something for them. Let's all do our best to not add to the rising death toll. And why "so-called cases"? Are you still claiming a high percentage of false positives? Of course you are! Why did I ask? As for the empty wards, isn't that proof to you that the strict spring lockdown was effective? It is to almost everyone else!
On Sun 25 Oct at 7:52pm Dreamer wrote:
Once again a lovely change of topic by TP. As always when he is pressed for evidence to support or justify his ideas and theories. He has repeatedly demonstrated that he does not understand even the basics of the claims he makes and is unable to support them with any evidence.
At some point he then circles back and starts over. And when pressed too hard will claim people contradicting him are parroting propaganda. Looking in a dictionary, it would appear "parroting" is repeating phrases one doesn't understand. Let's be honest: we have all seen who that most applies to.
What I don't understand is why? Why claim (figuratively) the sky is green, when everyone can see it us blue (or grey)? Is it really just to be able to not wear a mask without needing to admit to himself that he is being utterly selfish and doing his little part to ensure the next lockdown happens?
I'll leave someone with more expertise in psychology to analyse that.
On Sun 25 Oct at 8:04pm Dreamer wrote:
Indeed Ferret. Hospital occupancy with Covid is currently at a third of what it was at the peak and rising fast. Thankfully ICU capacity is still lagging behind - demonstrating that treatment has significantly improved (gotta love dexmethasone - effective and cheap) and also the different demographic.
Obviously none of this is evenly spread and in Manchester and other places, the ICU capacity is already getting tight.
To see where things will head if we don't do what we can (keep distances, wear a mask, test&trace) a quick look to Belgium is a good indication.
On Sun 25 Oct at 8:46pm Ferret wrote:
@Dreamer Perhaps the answer to your question why does TP trot out the same old rubbish, repeatedly, without the slightest acknowledgement of the possibility that he could be wrong, or even that he is out of step, is that he is exhibiting some form of 'reactance psychology'. He feels that his freedoms, and the right to express his free will are under severe threat, so he reacts with extreme contrarian thoughts, as he rails against everything that anyone would otherwise rationally approve of. I'm no psychologist, but I've come across a few of his type in my life. I've even been accused of it myself.
Apologies, Tom, for talking about you as if you weren't in the room.
On Mon 26 Oct at 1:11pm Tom Pain wrote:
Heart of Stone!!! Spare us the,sob, falling leaves Oh Sultan of Sanctimony. I expect, with your oleaginous and patronising tone, a lot of people you talk to have left the room by the time you have finished speaking and you're used to it. OK dreamer, I accept that patients with comorbidities could have caught them at exactly the same time as as they caught the virus, say an astonishingly fast acting cancer, heart disease or whatever, but is that likely or even relevant? Empty beds prove lockdown success? I know that's the government line but the similar figures for unlocked Sweden would blow that out of the water for anyone with an open mind. Whatever you do, don't read the Rockefeller 2010 lockstep document,agenda2030,or the WEF great restart, there's a faint chance you might start using some dormant function of your domesticated being!
On Mon 26 Oct at 4:55pm Mark wrote:
Oh Tom. Reading your stuff is just painful. It's just a collection of mistruths. Sweden didn't have a lockdown because they didn't need to. A cultural difference exists. The Swedes are a fiercely disciplined people. They're truculent... stubborn... fiercely libertarian. Even without a government-ordained lockdown, they probably observed anti-Covid measures more scrupulously than the UK did. Promised myself that I wouldn't get involved again in a discussion that TP was involved in, but I failed.
On Mon 26 Oct at 5:08pm Mark wrote:
The Swedes are people who don't like being told what to do because they already know what to do.
On Mon 26 Oct at 5:10pm Green Sleeves wrote:
I must confess, I went down the alt-right rabbit hole and web searched the rockafeller stuff, "the great restart" etc etc that TP takes extremely seriously. Imagine my astonishment to find much of it to be reaching, easily debunkable, or downright preposterous and the outcome of an odd wild imagination.
Your favourite pancetta finds you totally adorable, TP. I think this forum would be a duller place without you. Stay crazy Mr Icke.
On Mon 26 Oct at 6:07pm Mark wrote:
I've been down the same road, Greensleeves. I was doing internal painting last winter and I put on a youtube video that he was ranting about. It was meant to explain how credit and central banks operated. I listened to it twice. There were ideas in it that were interesting but mainly it just gave me a headache. I switched to Spotify or Woman's Hour. Can't recall which.
On Mon 26 Oct at 7:02pm Dreamer wrote:
Thank you TP for once again proving my point: you still don't understand what a comorbidity is. But you have the audacity to try to lecture people on how to interpret publications and data.
My advice remains the same: Learn the basics of what you spread theories on. At the very least learn the vocabulary. Or accept that you are missing the very foundation and just leave it.
On Mon 26 Oct at 7:08pm Dreamer wrote:
TP: "Empty beds prove lockdown success?"
You need to read what was said. I didn't say the beds were empty. I said they were filling up. And I said that successful treatments have managed to keep the ICU rates lower. Nowhere did I claim lockdowns were the reason for any of that.
But I appreciate that these are details and "big pictures guys" like BoJo, Trump and yourself don't particularly care for details.
On Mon 26 Oct at 9:10pm Dreamer wrote:
But credit where credit is due. I should highlight where you truly are an expert TP. You raised the topic yourself: Arrogance. Few things are as arrogant as someone who lacks even the most basic understanding of a topic, but believes he is justified to explain why actual experts on said topic that they are all wrong.
Bless your heart TP. Bless your heart.
On Mon 26 Oct at 11:37pm Ferret wrote:
Talk about misappropriation! The Rockefeller report that TP referenced is available for all to read. It envisages future scenarios based on technological change, one of which fits TP's paranoid imagination, and which has been latched onto by nutjobs everywhere on the web. They ignore the more optimistic scenarios, and the fact that all scenarios were just a little more likely than all other science fiction worlds of the future. The paper is called "Scenarios for the Future of Technology and International Development.". It is worth reading but only in order to counter those who selectively misinterpret its intentions. Thanks TP.
Check it out here »
On Tue 27 Oct at 11:23pm Tom Pain wrote:
Who set you dogs on me? I mean look at your posts!! What have I done to you? It's unbelievably farcical, how could the cream of character assassins in the BBC propaganda department focus their attention on me? These boys know their stuff, it's no shame to be beaten by the best,even if it takes a pack of them. Before it comes out in Twitter I'll reveal my sordid connection to Big Oil. Yes I was a spoke in the wheel of the Elswick Hopper Bicycle Oil Company, but I was just trying to make ends meet. I may have connections to various Evil Foreign Dictators who kill their own people for no better reason than they have natural resources that we want, I assure you, I was just humouring them. Keep the hysteria going lads, you're doing a good job, I'll see you for rehearsals for the parrot's chorus, we've got to keep in lockstep with our common purpose.
On Tue 27 Oct at 11:33pm Dreamer wrote:
You insist on spreading misinformation, even when you have repeatedly been proven wrong and whine when called out.
Basically, you are reaping what you sowed.