Lewes Forum thread

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Martin winter in court.

 
 
On 29 Aug 2008 at 8:37pm Dave wrote:
Heard on southern fm Martin and nathan winter are in court today anyone know what happened.
 
 
On 29 Aug 2008 at 9:15pm Nosy neighbour wrote:
Neither have entered a plea yet, but case adjourned until October.
 
 
On 30 Aug 2008 at 10:13pm Pikelet wrote:
The blatant stitch up of Martin and Nathan is nothing less than a DISGRACE.
 
 
On 30 Aug 2008 at 10:21pm Cliffebimbo wrote:
I agree Pikelet. I would love to hear from the Fire Brigade and what their explanation is as to why they sent their men in there.
 
 
On 31 Aug 2008 at 11:05am Lewes Larry wrote:
You guys really are stupid arent you. Just because they are to do with bonfire doesnt make them in the right!!! they broke the rules set for storing fireworks and 2 men died because of it! get your heads out of the sand bonfire boys and girls it was their fault!
 
 
On 31 Aug 2008 at 8:11pm Cliffebimbo wrote:
I am sorry "Lewes" Larry, but I have spoken to many people who are not involved with bonfire at all, and they are as perplexed as I am as to why they went in there. Would you go into an exploding building? I know I wouldn't. Also how do you know they broke the rules with regard to storing of fireworks? An enquiry has not been completed and so what you are saying is conjecture.
 
 
On 31 Aug 2008 at 10:18pm Enoch wrote:
Cliffebimbo, I was just about to say that I was not aware that the enquiry had been completed!!! Seems like Larry knows more than most.
 
 
On 1 Sep 2008 at 8:24am dave wrote:
I remember a interview on sky news after the event one of the winter Boys gave (not sure which one)
it went something like
We have lost everything the firebrigade did nothing we have lost our home our business even our pets..... they just let it burn.
I was shocked and amazed
on one hand the winters say why did they go in on the other they say they didnt do enough.
the fire brigade have a duty to save lives and property
the two men who died were there to video for press and evidence.
they went in not knowing the full extent of the fireworks
the winters have been charged under breech of storage of fireworks etc if they had done nothing wrong why have they been charged.
 
 
On 1 Sep 2008 at 12:24pm Cliffebimbo wrote:
Dave, the person who made those comments is not in Martin's immediate family and so I don't think Martin can be held accountable for what was said. I am sure the family are extremely distressed by what happened, and have to live with the knowledge for the rest of their lives.
I would like to ask again though - why did the fire brigade go in when there was no risk to human life-as I said before, would you go into an area which is exploding around you? The fire brigade were fully aware of what was in there, and were actually told not to enter, but ignored the advice.
Also, you contradict yourself when you say that the fire brigade have a duty to save lives and buildings, but you then go on to say that the two firemen who went in were filming, so actually, they were not there to say lives and buildings. Somebody must have given them an order to go in, but this seems to be getting ignored.
 
 
On 1 Sep 2008 at 12:53pm Its Not Rocket Science wrote:
These days the police dont call anything an 'accident', but instead' call it an 'incident' as that means there is always someone to blame. I guess in this instance everything possible will be done to attach that blame to the Winters in in order to detract attention from those who may have made the wrong decisions on the day. It seems to me to be common sense that where the storage of dangerous materials is concerned, whether that be fireworks (legally or illegally) or domestic gas tanks, or whatever, then the appropriate precautions should have been taken. In these days where safety at work goes to the extremes that it does, then even if there is a slight risk, it should prevent employees being put into potentially dangerous situations. As such the safety of the firemen should surely have been more important than attempting to gather evidence in such an obviously dangerous environment ?.
 
 
On 1 Sep 2008 at 12:57pm Lewes Larry wrote:
Any reason why you put "Lewes" Larry??? dont you think I am from lewes??
If you are such an expertbimbo then who told them not to go in?? oh and they had been warned about their storage numerous times. Its typical of lewes bonfire people to bury their heads in the sand and try to protect these people even when they are in the wrong.
By the way only one of them was in there filming the other was fighting the fire!
 
 
On 1 Sep 2008 at 1:10pm Cliffebimbo wrote:
So how come you are an expert then, Larry. Were you there?
 
 
On 1 Sep 2008 at 1:13pm Its Not Rocket Science wrote:
These days the police dont call anything an 'accident', but instead' call it an 'incident' as that means there is always someone to blame. I guess in this instance everything possible will be done to attach that blame to the Winters in in order to detract attention from those who may have made the wrong decisions on the day. It seems to me to be common sense that where the storage of dangerous materials is concerned, whether that be fireworks (legally or illegally) or domestic gas tanks, or whatever, then the appropriate precautions should have been taken. In these days where safety at work goes to the extremes that it does, then even if there is a slight risk, it should prevent employees being put into potentially dangerous situations. As such the safety of the firemen should surely have been more important than attempting to gather evidence in such an obviously dangerous environment ?.
Oh, and by the way Lewes Larry - you put "Lewes" yourself in your original post. And if you are such an expert, who told you how the fireworks were being stored ? And if this was true, and was common knowledge before the event as you imply, then it just makes the decision to send men in even more reckless.
 
 
On 1 Sep 2008 at 1:32pm Lewes Larry wrote:
not in quote marks i didnt.
I know this as i knew both the firemen involved. you people dont seem to have any understanding of what the people in the emergency services risk for our safety and protection.
At the end of the day if the fireworks had been stored properly then they would still be alive. your arguement about it being their choice to go in making it their fault is ridiculous. Thats like saying if you are knocked down by a drink driver then it is your fault for choosing to cross the road not the drivers for breaking the law!!
 
 
On 1 Sep 2008 at 2:15pm Cliffebimbo wrote:
I am not disputing that the fact that the fire brigade do an absolutely fantastic job. I really admire the fact that they do what they do-I know a couple of firemen, and one of them used to do work for Martin. But as Its Not Rocket Science says, if the fire brigade were aware that the fireworks were not stored properly, the decision to send them in was reckless. Also, how do you know that if the fireworks were stored properly they would still be alive. Fireworks are dangerous, whether stored correctly or not. Nobody has said that it was their fault for going in, but nor is it Martin's. The question is, why did they go in, and who made the order, as surely that person needs to be held accountable to a certain degree.
 
 
On 1 Sep 2008 at 4:09pm Its Not Rocket Science wrote:
Thank you Cliffebimbo, at least you are reading what I actually said, and not going off half cocked like LEWES Larry. As he seems to have missed, I did not at any point say that these men made their own choice to go in. I am saying the decision was made to send them in which is completely different. Also, I know people who have been killed tragically - and whilst it may make their loss more of a personal matter, it does not make me an expert on the circumstances leading up to the event. You may well have known both of these men, and I sympathise for their friends and family 100%, but that cannot possibly give you any more insight into what happened than anyone else. Of course we understand what the emergency services risk for our safety and protection, but you seem to have it in your head that we are blaming the two firemen that were killed personally. This could not be further from the truth. We are suggesting that whoever sent them in may have made the wrong decision and should now be made accountable for that decision.
Furthermore, your suggestion that this is like stepping in front of a drunk driver is no comparison either, because you are suggesting that the alleged method of storage of the fireworks was know in advance. The sobriety or otherwise of a driver in an accident would not be known until after the event - who in their right mind after all would send someone to cross the road in front of what they knew to be a drunk driver ?
Your assertion that if the fireworks had been stored properly that the firemen would still be alive does not really hold water either. Are you suggesting that an illegally stored firework explodes in any different or less predictable way to a legally stored one ? If so, then you claim this was known about in advance so why were any persons allowed into such a dangerous and unpredictable situation ? Is it actually a fact that the fireworks were stored illegally ? Has evidence been found or is that just an assumption because of allegations that it might have happened in the past ?
I would like to add that I have every admiration for the fire brigade, they do a fantastic job that most people would not do, showing great courage and putting the lives of others before their own as a matter of course. What I do object to is what sounds like a bad decision being made by someone in authority being obscured by shifting all the blame onto someone who, as far as I know, in the absence of proof to the contrary, remains innocent !
 
 
On 1 Sep 2008 at 4:34pm hound wrote:
martin and his family only care about money. I use to buy all of my fireworks for display purposes until the day i saw him sell display fireworks to a member of the public then after that person left Martin just laughed, he has no concern for saftey.
 
 
On 1 Sep 2008 at 8:30pm Impartial wrote:
My understanding is that there are a number of issues.
The possible illegal/improper storage of high explosives (no
A breach of fire brigade policy regarding fires involving explosives.
An unresolved inquiry.
Until these issues are resolved in court, Mr Winter and his son should be considered innocent, as indeed should any member of the fire services who may have improperly breached safety policy.



 
 
On 2 Sep 2008 at 9:18am Crime Writer wrote:
I think it's an absolute disgrace that people are saying negative things about the fire brigade with regard to this incident....think of the two blokes who died and their families...
Bet none of you lot would have the balls to be a firefighter...
 
 
On 2 Sep 2008 at 9:54am Voice of Truth wrote:
Before everyone gets worked up into a lather about this, I think cliffedimbo should be honest say exactly what her relationship to the accussed is. If you all knew then you would appreciate her rather 'rose coloured' bias.
 
 
On 2 Sep 2008 at 10:00am Lost voice wrote:
At the end of the day we all know the winters sold fireworks they shouldnt have many a bonfire boy has bought fireworks for the 5th me included that we should have had a licence for.
so he cant say he's squeaky clean when we know he isn't.
He has been charged for several breeches of h&S we will have to wait and see if they are found guilty or not before we cast judgement on this.
the firebrigade may have told the men not to go in maybe not, maybe they didnt hear among the noise, maybe they couldn't get out we will prob never know as two brave men sadly lost there lives that day.
in my opinion if the factory hadn't gone up that day the fire brigade wouldnt have been there they would have prob been tucking into sunday lunch like the rest of us.
the blame I feel is down to the winters if the hearing says they did nothing wrong and evrything was above board then this was a tragic accident and we must learn from it.
I also heard the interview on the news from one of the winters about the firebrigade doing nothing.
and was shocked also and this can't have done peoples opinion of them any good he may not be his imidiate family but he carries the surname.
 
 
On 2 Sep 2008 at 12:12pm Cliffebimbo wrote:
OK, well as a lot of people on here know who I am anyway, or have worked it out including you Voice of Truth, I admit I am a relation of Martins, BUT I like to think that I am intelligent enough to comment on this tragedy, whilst remaining impartial. We are a large family, and I do not necessarily hold the same views as many of my cousins/aunts/uncles, so whether I am a relative or not should not make any difference to this argument, as I would be saying the same even if we werent related.
Maybe Martin was lax with his Health and Safety, but that is not something I can comment on as I dont know, but accidents can happen, even if regulations are followed to the letter.
As I have said, throughout this thread, I cannot understand why the firemen went in there, and who made the order (this is not a criticism of the brigade, but the orders which were followed), when there was no risk to human life, and they were told not to go in. Many other people I know have echoed this sentiment (and they are not members of the Winter family, nor are they in Bonfire).
I have not criticised the fire brigade at all. "Negative things" have not been said about the fire brigade by anyone, nor about the two firemen who tragically lost their lives. I admire what they do intensely and I was devastated when I heard there had been loss of life, but it could so easily have been one of the family too.
 
 
On 2 Sep 2008 at 12:16pm hound wrote:
Nice one lost voice, you hit the nail on the HEAD
 
 
On 2 Sep 2008 at 12:31pm just me wrote:
When the trial goes to court and ALL the evidence is revealed, the public will then be in a position to comment. Until then gossip is just gossip, which Lewes people seem to thrive on. Whether or not Cliffebimbo is related to or knows the Winters is neither here nor there, facts are facts. Like i said the truth will out and maybe people will be surprised. The Winters have been persecuted since the dreadful accident by people who only know half of the truth.
 
 
On 2 Sep 2008 at 4:56pm Henry K wrote:
Yes, Crime Writer, I think the general consensus on both sides of this argument is that a. firefighters do a great job, b. that most people wouldnt have the balls to do it and c. that everyones thoughts do indeed go out to the families of the firemen that lost their lives. However, how does that automatically give anyone the grounds, or the right, to assume that the Winters must therefore be responsible for their deaths ?. That is a very, very serious accusation to make, yet it is being thrown around very lightly by a lot of people at the moment. Perhaps both sides on this one should take a step back, and keep their accusations to themselves until such a time that the full facts are known, and those being accused have been given a chance to defend themselves.
 
 
On 3 Sep 2008 at 8:34am Rudolf wrote:
I know a retired fireman who used to work with one of the men who sadly died. He said he was notorious for being "gung-ho" and going in to video where he shouldn't have gone, and reckoned that he never would have been ordered to go into a building until they were sure it was safe.
I do feel the Winters are being treated a bit harshly, and think it's part of a wider anti-bonfire feeling among the authorities at the moment.
As for storage breaches, if it's anything like other hazardous stuff, the regulations are so complex and change so often that it's practically a full-time job just keeping up to date with it all.
 
 
On 4 Sep 2008 at 10:10am Pd off wrote:
Rudolf, I think that post is out of order Martin, Nathan and all the directors have the ability to reply to these threads if they wanted to although I know they wont for Legal reasons .
but the two fireman dont have the Ability to reply but there families now have to wonder if they lost loved one because of what you said.
I know a lot of speculation is flying around but dont attack people who cant defend themselves.
big difference between can't and won't defend themselves.
 
 
On 4 Sep 2008 at 11:12am just me wrote:
Personally, P'd off. I think you have no right to lay that guilt trip on Rudolf. You can bet your life a lot of people are feeling guilty about the accident, lets just hope that once all the evidence is heard the truth will out. Unfortunately, as with all of the services, ranks become closed in times like this. Someone will have to pay for this dreadful accident, lets hope there are no scapegoats.
 
 
On 4 Sep 2008 at 11:21am yawn wrote:
Is it possible for everyone on this thread to give it a rest until after any outcome of the court case.
All you are doing is winding each other up, potentially upsetting relatives of the Firemen, doing nothing to help the Winters, and potentially putting about incorrect information.
anyone with any common sense can see that no one was intentionally killed, that mistakes may have been made, and that the issues are complicated.


 
 
On 4 Sep 2008 at 11:51am steve b wrote:
Sorry if this is all making you so tired yawn. There are plenty of other threads for you to comment on if this one is boring you. Unfortunately, human nature makes us discuss issues that are sometimes sensitive, unfortunately, it is what happens in life. I understand what you are saying and agree to an extent, however, we need to have freedom of speech or we have nothing.
 
 
On 4 Sep 2008 at 12:08pm Pd off wrote:
Just me. I wasn't laying the guilt trip on Rudolph I was saying it as it is. he made a statement that I felt was out of order I stand by that post. I feel for Martin And Nathan
And applaud them for not replying I Know I couldnt keep quiet. if it was me with all this hostility towards them.
But I also feel for the Firemans family
Yawn I agree 100% that speculation and gossip is not making this easier.
I feel though even when the verdict is out people wont believe it and still go with gut feelings.
A lot of people have already portioned blame
 
 
On 4 Sep 2008 at 1:34pm yawn wrote:
This thread is insensitive and unhelpful gossip, nothing more.
If you would rather speculate away before the full facts are presented at the appropriate time then carry on. I can't stop you.
Just ask yourself what your real motivation is, because it is not helping anyone.





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