On 1 Dec 2020 at 11:53pm IDM wrote:
Hope you all find me again. This is to expand/prolong GoodNews.
On 1 Dec 2020 at 11:58pm IDM wrote:
Ferret, we went seriously off thread in GoodNews, obscuring its intended subject. Can I suggest that we move our interesting discussion to the Grammar etc thread? I'll stick my next post there, hoping you'll follow me.
On 2 Dec 2020 at 9:43am Ferret wrote:
I don't consider any effort to show up what an eccentric fraud looks like. TP not only invents or repeats falsehoods about the virus, but he also invents words now, and mangles spelling and grammar as he mangles the truth. He (or is it she?) treats the forum as his own little propaganda organ, and he/she needs to be challenged at every turn.
On 2 Dec 2020 at 9:47am Ferret wrote:
Sorry, my first sentence was incomplete. It should have read "I don't consider any effort to show up what an eccentric fraud looks like as 'seriously off thread'".
On 2 Dec 2020 at 11:08am Tom Pain wrote:
Oh ferette you're a bundle of fun aren't you? The mention of propaganda is very interesting. Spending so much time spreading your slime over what you imagine to be me,you seem to have forgotten to mention what your beliefs are. I hardly think your valiant support for their policy in any way reflects your support for our government. Which leads to the question- what is your iron in the fire?
On 2 Dec 2020 at 12:49pm Ferret wrote:
Dear TP, my political views are not relevant to the discussion regarding the falsehoods that you promote, but just to reassure you that my opposition to your pandemic denial, lockdown and testing undermining, and anti-vaccination distortions, is not based on support for the Tories, I'll tell you. I've never voted Tory in my life, indeed I was a Labour member until they introduced tuition fees, and I've always been a keen believer in the benefits of membership of the EU. So kindly stop suggesting that I am supporting the Tories by arguing against your nonsense. You are supporting the extreme right with your strange Trumpian views.
On 2 Dec 2020 at 1:49pm Tom Pain wrote:
I say, "Trumpian" You're not making up words are you? I should have a look at the good news thread, you'll find some vivid comments about that habit by some extremely expert pedants. Do take a look. Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour,but there seems to be a claque of bigots on the forum who take a dim view of it and they're relentlessly tiresome.
On 2 Dec 2020 at 3:24pm Ferret wrote:
I can't claim to have invented the word. Here's an example of it in use. (see link)
Check it out here »
On 2 Dec 2020 at 7:13pm Hyena wrote:
Tom, not as tiresome as the endless bickering with Ferret and N.
On 2 Dec 2020 at 8:01pm Tom Pain wrote:
I have to agree with you hyena,though it Pains me. So to continue. I'll revise my question. We've all seen the statistics. Every year there's a flu season, some are worse than others and this is by no means the worst. Why are we ruining the economy this year? The giant multinationals, the big capitalists are having a field day and the small to mediums are going down. As a socialist ferret, why are you supporting it, as I said, what's your iron in the fire? Do you think the WEF Great Restart can have anything to do with it?
On 3 Dec 2020 at 2:29pm Green Sleeves wrote:
Hmmm, flu seasons typically kill around 11k people a year in the UK, although that is with a vaccine already (but that is largely the only strategy for that). Meanwhile, COVID has killed 60k in the UK since March and that figure is likely to go considerably higher until next March given we're already in a 2nd peak where 500-600 people a day are dying of it with thousands more being infected every day. Even despite the numerous lockdowns, tiered approach, mass testing regime, social distancing, hand hygiene, face mask adoption etc etc have been a implemented in a totally unprecedented way. The vaccine should of course help though.
Lets provide an estimate of another 40k more deaths by March, leaving a round number of 100k deaths in the UK in a full year. If we did absolutely nothing (and literally NO country did that), its not unrealistic to suggest that the death toll would have been significantly higher. Maybe double, maybe treble, possibly many times more. Suddenly, the figures of 200k-500k deaths by much maligned government advisors back at the start of the pandemic (if nothing was done about it) doesn't seem so outrageous now.
On 3 Dec 2020 at 3:57pm Ferret wrote:
I wouldn't call myself a socialist, TP. Labour have usually reflected my social political leanings more often than not, but I have always voted for the party most likely to keep the Tory out. As for the war against the virus, I'm prepared to make allowances for mismanagement and failures of leadership given the extreme complexity of the pandemic, with asymptomatic infection being such a complicating factor. No other virus has caused such misery and disruption in this country in our lifetimes. But no-one can deny that lockdowns and other restrictions have saved lives. The economy will recover. The dead won't. And there would have been hundreds of thousands more but for the general compliance of the vast majority of people, and their willingness to ignore the trash spouted by the tiny majority, which sadly includes you. Give it a rest. People (including my 93 year old mother and her carers) are nervous about the vaccine already without your contribution.
On 3 Dec 2020 at 4:53pm IDM wrote:
Back to the virus. Yes, it is good news, but not the best news. That is everybody doing all possible to control things. If it were in my power: no Xmas loosening, coverings compulsory in public; shop to close down by physical size (infection far more likely in a trip to three small shops rather one to a supermarket), compulsory hand-sanitisers at all retailers, (most controversially) compulsary vaccination.
On 3 Dec 2020 at 11:57pm IDM wrote:
To those add: complete brickwall between tiers (even for education), tiers set where actually needed rather than by boundaries set hundreds of years ago, make the 2m/1m+ guidance actually law. It isn't and it never has been. Of course the Government has pretended it is and even fooled the media -the BBC mentioned briefly that the police could not enforce it, but for the most part everyone has been conned into doing something without any parliamentary scrutiny possible. I call this government by stealth and dread to think when it will be tried next.
On 4 Dec 2020 at 10:53am IDM wrote:
If Fauci now thinks the MHRA approval was OK, why doesn't he save US lives by taking that approval and stop waiting for the FDA?
Notice that we have moved from "Stay at home if possible." (lockdown one) to "Only meet outside." (Sussex Tier 2)!
On 4 Dec 2020 at 1:50pm Tom Pain wrote:
It is government by stealth because the measures are so constitutionally unsound, they can not be honest about them. The only good thing is that they are not as tyrannically draconian as your suggestions.
On 4 Dec 2020 at 11:36pm IDM wrote:
Yes, some would be seen as simple and some as Draconian, That's why at least the latter shouldn't be "guidance". But we need to go as far as we can with these measures.
On 5 Dec 2020 at 12:27pm Tom Pain wrote:
Yes,simply draconian and measures of guidance, it all depends on who you are and where you are going, Inscrutable Dreaming Machine.
On 5 Dec 2020 at 12:50pm Green Sleeves wrote:
I feel with each passing day, Tom Pains credibility on this pandemic issue wanes. Not that much credibility was warranted to begin with.
3,000 people are dying now in the USA each day of the Coronavirus (and is regarded as currently the biggest single cause of death). Quarter of a million people are infected each day as well, with medical resources stretched to the limits in some places. Fauci anticipates that the death toll could be over 500,000 in the USA by April, even with the rollout of the vaccination programmes. Proportionately, its not that much better over here...
At what point do you just say, even to yourself "OK, perhaps I was wrong on this one"?
On 5 Dec 2020 at 2:40pm IDM wrote:
Yes Green Sleeves, it continues to irritate me that the media (including the BBC) screech about the US death toll being the highest in the world. Per capita, they are about the same us.
On 5 Dec 2020 at 7:25pm Tom Pain wrote:
I looked at the CDC and it says 1,000
On 5 Dec 2020 at 11:55pm IDM wrote:
Worldometer says 2,200 yesterday in the US, running higher than the UK per capita. Comparisons between US and UK death rates fluctuate all the time. At the moment the UK is 3.5% above the US (cumulatively), but it wouldn't surprise me if things change round again. This has already happened several times. I think, TP, your reasoning and data picking show caverns measureless to man.
On 6 Dec 2020 at 12:43pm Tom Pain wrote:
How kind of you to add that personal touch but then that is a characteristic of the forum, so friendly and tolerant of a diversity of opinion.
On 6 Dec 2020 at 11:37pm IDM wrote:
Couldn't resist continuing the Coleridge! A few years ago I amused my mates with self-parody. Inc.. Dan.. Man became Incompetent Dangerous Maniac.
On 6 Dec 2020 at 11:55pm IDM wrote:
BBC just said UK worst rate in Europe. In fact we're still behind Italy and Spain.
On 7 Dec 2020 at 11:14am Tom Pain wrote:
No surprise there. The puzzling thing is that people fact check with that corporation which has a track record of being severely economic with the truth. Let's face it, they say what they are told to say. As a corporation they are responsible to their stakeholders, the majority of whom are not well advertised.
On 8 Dec 2020 at 6:40pm Nevillman wrote:
Who to believe, the BBC or Tom pain? That is a tough one.
On 8 Dec 2020 at 7:05pm Ferret wrote:
Yes. A global survey with 138,000 respondents found that BBC News was the most trustworthy in the workd, ahead of Reuters, CNN and the New York Times. But of course Mr. Pain thinks they're all lying. Who at the BBC is writing the lies for all their newsreaders, presenters and journalists to tell us. Is it Bill Gates or George Soros, or some other individual bent on world domination? More paranoid nonsense, pandering to the right wing again by assaulting one of the UK's great institutions.
On 8 Dec 2020 at 10:43pm Tom Pain wrote:
It's difficult isn't it. I'll just let their best boy Jimmy Savile fix it. Rights of Man ferret has to chime in to defend that bastion of the Empire the BBC by suggesting that any criticism is right wing!!!! I couldn't make it up, perhaps you have to be a science graduate to aspire to that level of doublethink. But I must thank you for mentioning your favourite capitalist plutocrat. I won't mention his name in case greendeal gets overexcited, but my attention has been drawn to an idea he had in May. In order to alay the financial melt down of the seasonal cold plague, he had a wonderful idea- the consol or perpetual bond and bond's the word. The government borrows a vast sum of money and never pays it back, BUT pays interest FOREVER. (From his organisation no doubt). These philanthropists are so generous, all they want is humanity to be their debt slaves through eternity. You have to be a graduate to appreciate the benefit of that. It's a shame they're so intelligent that they don't know the fact that these financial magicians conjure it up as numbers on a screen out of nothing. Their egos could never admit it even to themselves so it doesn't matter. Old Georgie knows it and he's banking on it.
On 9 Dec 2020 at 9:35am Green Sleeves wrote:
The BBC isn't beyond reproach, but they are a lazy target for conspiracy nuts to default to when they realise that covid is perhaps more than just a "seasonal flu" and death rates are well beyond the levels of simply doing nothing. Hence why virtually every government has made some degree or effort to not let it wipe out their elderly and vulnerable.
TP, perhaps it's time to concede that you have, at best, massively downplayed this virus. In the USA they are experiencing single day deaths almost everyday on par (or worse) with 9/11 and Pearl Harbour due to covid. Trump in part lost the election because of his negligence on this issue. Republican senators disproportionately have contracted the virus, compared with Democrats. This reckless behaviour and ignorance starts at the top and Trump and his party made the error of being on the wrong side of history once again, meanwhile his opponents took it seriously. Even if you can't use your own mind, it's surely unwise to follow the path of brash con men and blatant liars.
Sadly though, we will go round in circles here and we will be back to where Soros hid the Nazi gold and how the BBC faked Jimmy Savilles death etc etc.
On 9 Dec 2020 at 10:29am Ferret wrote:
Who is it that constantly threatens the existence of the BBC other than the media mouthpieces of the right wing Tory supporting multi-millionaires? Why do they do it? To my mind it's because it irritates them that a media and entertainment giant competes with their profit making organisations unfairly, in their eyes. They want to undermine and ultimately destroy it so that we will have no information and news source, no quality entertainment, other than that provided by them. The BBC was established and protected by royal charter (the only worthwhile thing that the monarchy has provided in several centuries, perhaps ever), and is required by that charter to provide a 'balanced' view. Sadly that gives a voice to obnoxious toe-rags like Farage and Duncan-Smith. But we have learnt to put up with obnoxious people in other arenas, haven't we?
On 9 Dec 2020 at 11:58pm IDM wrote:
OK Ferret, we'll stay here. I completely agree that usage is the best arbiter - but there are problems with defining it. As Nevillman says (Grammar etc - 7.41 3 Sep) language is always evolving. This is strongly Darwinian. Most changes in language start as mistakes, like DNA copying mistakes. If the mistake leads to language that survives better in its environment (writers, readers, listeners and speakers) through easier spelling, pronunciation or falling better into an established structure - it survives and the earlier version, like species, becomes extinct. We move from everyone telling one person off (mistake) to one person telling everybody off (pedantry). When this occurs is a matter of judgement for each individual.
Exceptions to the mistake route are:
importation from another language (pizza, including its pronunciation);
directed evolution (which most bioligists deny), eg trying to abolish "Essex
Girl";
pseudo neologisms (made from (bits of) existing words including proper
nouns) "hovercraft", "telescope", "gramophone", "zillion", "smog" and
(dare I say it) "Trumpian";
True neoligisms (very rare, but "googol" (the name of the integer)).
[ to be continued]
On 11 Dec 2020 at 8:33am IDM wrote:
Dictionaries may not be authoritative, partly because they will always be out of date. But some do give a nod to usage - "archaic", "obsolete". This is useful for readers of a 1620 work; but one is warned not to use it in 2020. Personally, if I were confronted with a word I had never seen before, I would check it in every word list going. Absence or inclusion would be persuasive either way; but not authoritative.
Another type of mistake which I have always liked is improper word division. "a napron" becomes "an apron" and " an ewt" becomes"a newt".
Then we have dialect. What is accepted as correct usage in Yorkshire will raise a few eyebrows in Sussex and vice versa. Similar is "defence"/"defense" and "honour"/"honor". Well, I must cut my stick.
Oh, a Parthian shot. On Grammar etc. (2 Sept 10-46), someone said for spelling "Look it up". Look it up where exactly?
On 11 Dec 2020 at 12:07pm Green Sleeves wrote:
Well, everyone needs a hobby. 
On 12 Dec 2020 at 12:39pm Tom Pain wrote:
Webbo again, a severe health problem indicated by the last post but one- extreme verbal incontinence. Perhaps we need an interspecies medical practitioner on call. This could be a pandemic, let's hope we don't need a three tier forum lockdown.
On 12 Dec 2020 at 11:51pm IDM wrote:
"Trumpian" - well Ferret, we are agreed that a single use does not constitute authority. But "Trumpian" was adopted by a dictionary in 2016 and is commonly used by political commentators (in the US) to refer to historic figures who showed the same characteristics. I would say established usage in the US, but not yet over here. But we will catch up and even now, a Brit faced faced with the word would know what it meant.
On 12 Dec 2020 at 11:56pm IDM wrote:
BBC the best monarch act ever? Magna Carta (after the Barons' War) and The Mise of Lewes (after a certain battle) leading respectively to the Lords and the Commons. Of course, the king only agreed under severe duress, so perhaps they don't count!