On 7 Oct 2007 at 2:43pm Northern Bigot wrote:
What was a sacrosanct part of the Cliffe programme has been altered this year the "Remembrance" page has been significantly altered Protestant references to the Book of Common prayer, the Bishop of Rome, the Spanish Armada, the Star Inn, the Holy Inquisition, Jesuit inspired Gunpowder plot have all been deleted. Instead we are told the Catholics also had their Martyrs! On another page their is reference to "paranoic fear of Roman Catholicism in the 17th Century". Any basic history knowledge of the 17th Century would confirm this fear was not paranoid but real! Its no use going on about "tradition" if the societies own programme decides to water down the Protestant traditions of Lewes bonfire! And for what reason? Has anyone complained about the traditional "remembrance" article? why this new pc update?
On 7 Oct 2007 at 3:37pm ExiledfromLewes wrote:
I can't speak on behalf of Cliffe Bonfire Society and i have not seen the said programme, however I would state that from the Cliffe members i'm friends with they take the history of Bonfire as seriously as anyone.
i am also wary about calls of 'political correctness' going mad. Despite that what you state in your thread is true, then i'm not too surprised. I've noticed a revisionist history of Bonfire being stated in recent years, which would make my grand parents turn in their grave. I think a number of people are not comfortable with the towns history and revising it for a universal, uncontroversial family friendly version.
I won't divulge any further as I don't want agitate people, however i have concerns of how far this dilution will go. i see it as potty as the no rookies in the procession nonsense.
On 7 Oct 2007 at 3:59pm Northern Bigot wrote:
I dont wish to upset either, iam just stating as fact that an important and traditional part of the programme has been altered! I totally agree with you about the grand parents atitude to today would be! Many older folk are "amused" by todays emphasis on the burning of Pope Paul V the pope at the time of the plot! In their day it was simply the Pope! No dressing it up for outside opinion! The reason why the Cliffe took its hardline stand when it came under pressure and threats in the 1930s and later, was because it wanted to uphold the Protestant traditions of bonfire!
On 7 Oct 2007 at 5:39pm ExiledfromLewes wrote:
I agree, the history of the town is important and whether people like or dislike it is inconsequential. You can't change four hundred years of history and aprox 150 years of bonfire tradition.
Although never a Cliffe member it is fair to say as you point out that they have a good history of upholding the traditions and I still don't doubt that, i think what is needed is for bonfire members to be more outspoken if they dislike the root bonfire it taking.
On 8 Oct 2007 at 10:43pm Spinster Of This Parish wrote:
I think this years programme is fantastic, probably best ever!
As for being PC, I doubt it - the satirical "Down from London Bonfire Society" article is very witty. Well done to the Cliffe!
On 9 Oct 2007 at 1:07pm OLIVER THE OUTSIDER wrote:
I also read their "spoof" piece & frankly, I think it's disgraceful! Don't these navel-gazing "wurzels" realise that without the influx of us newcomers (with our high disposable incomes), this one-horse town would have died on its arse years ago! I don't see many of the "won't be druv" brigade supporting the local galleries, delis, independent traders & eco-friendly community projects - they're all too busy queing up at Tescos, fighting outside the kebab shop and letting off bangers morning, noon & night!
On 9 Oct 2007 at 1:48pm Boye wrote:
It's 'Wunt Be Druv'
Hope that helps.
On 9 Oct 2007 at 2:06pm Its Not Rocket Science wrote:
Oh Dear Oliver, you really dont know what you are talking about do you. Being an outsider you obviously do not know to what extent the membership of the Bonfire Societies do support, and in fact own, the local galleries, delis etc.. etc... and how many Society members have held prominent and respectable positions in the town and the council etc.. So to turn the tables, if it wasnt for the so called navel gazing wurzels, there would not be much of a town for you and all the other misinformed outsiders to try laying the law down in.
This point of this article is aimed at people like you who dont understand Bonfire or know anything about the people involved. Whilst its easy to make sweeping generalisations and lay the blame on the Bonfire Societies, fighting outside the kebab shop and letting off bangers morning, noon and night is not part of bonfire and does not happen in Lewes because of it. It happens all over the country - even in London ! So, perhaps you had better remove yourself from your own a*se, take your misguided preconceptions and shove them up there instead !!
On 9 Oct 2007 at 2:45pm me wrote:
And you wonder why the locals are so against people like you infesting our town! You couldn't have done a better job of alienating yourself.
On 9 Oct 2007 at 6:57pm AUNT SALLY wrote:
Dear Oliver The Outsider
I am a 3rd generation lewesian & very proud of that fact i do as it happens shop in Tescos & i do support my local independant traders. Lewes is a working town full of working class people we have managed very well without any help from "outsiders" with there high disposable incomes you can stop moaning about our traditions in our town if you don't like them move, trust me we will not miss you or your "high disposable income" .
I am proud to come from this one horse town it is such a shame it is now full of "outsiders"
go and leave us "wurzels" in peace.
On 9 Oct 2007 at 7:34pm northern bigot wrote:
My point was the continued as evidenced by this years programme, reluctance to stress the Protestant history and background re the Cliffe Bonfire Society,by the removal of the traditional "Remembrance" article. It is not an all embracing Christian Martyrs Memorial it is a Protestant one! The banner says No Popery not No Popery if thats alright with you!
True, to most of the population these things dont matter, but if they dont matter to the Cliffe then its denying its history.
What people like Bill Gearing or H Wooley the former Societies chairman staunch Protestants would have made of it i would love to know!
On 9 Oct 2007 at 8:44pm For The Record wrote:
Gosh, this new programme must be good - it obviously contains new material as evidenced by the above posts (better than reading the same stuff year in year out).
How reassurring for Oliver to discover that the local "Wurzels" can read! Golly Gosh - it's like Darwin's theory of evolution in front of one's eyes - whatever next?
On 9 Oct 2007 at 9:28pm Persephone Trellis wrote:
How I applaud Oliver's sentiments. Without us "incomers" Lewes would now be a town entirely bereft of fair trade muesli, organic knitwear and, quite frankly, People Like Us who have raised the cultural tone. There's no doubt that, left to themselves, Lewes people would still spend the autumn months wandering the streets in grubby Pirate costumes, accosting passers by to "Buy Us A Banger, Missis".
On 9 Oct 2007 at 9:38pm lopster wrote:
On 9 Oct 2007 at 11:20pm Friend of a friend of the Lewes Arms wrote:
Oliver - once you've lived in Lewes for a while, you'll realise how important the fireworks parades are to your new neighbours. I've been here for three years now and I love the colourful costumes that create a true carnival atmosphere that is second to none. Live and let live, I say.
Am I right in thinking the event used to be run by one of the churches? My only suggestion to improve the event would be for the council to host it in the field behind the leisure centre Let's get everyone together again and hold one united display, suitable for all families, regardless of whether they are locals or newcomers.
On 10 Oct 2007 at 8:10am me wrote:
"fireworks parades" NO it's the 5th. "true carnival atmosphere" try Uckfield. "suitable for families" Try Neville Juvenille. "Lets get everyone together again and hold one united display, suitable for all families, regardless of wether they are locals or newcomers" Surely you would be better calling yourself - Friend of a friend of Parrot!
On 10 Oct 2007 at 3:30pm Hermione wrote:
I haven't heard of this Harry Potter spell.
What does it do? I can't find it on MuggleNet.
On 10 Oct 2007 at 3:39pm OLIVER wrote:
Thank you Persephone - at last a bit of common sense on this obviously "wurzel"-dominated site! Having re-read the Cliffe's silly & offensive spoof, I think that inadvertently they may be on to something. I'm sure that there must be quite a lot of us (high) "incomers" who would like to see a more family-friendly firework society. We wouldn't have to be too tied up with events of the past, which often highlight religious conflicts & hatred. We could reflect a more contemporary ethos in a modern, non-secular, multi-faith celebration of artistic freedom & self-expression. My friend Toby's company does lazer & lighting displays for pop concerts & product launches etc. He says he'd be prepared to put on a show for us if we had a site. I'll find out about this Baxters Field place, if anyone is interested. I'm sure we could put on a better show than the "Druvvers" with their crummy fireworks! This is the 21st Century you know!!!
On 10 Oct 2007 at 4:24pm Lavinia wrote:
Well done Sir!
I must say, this all sounds terribly exciting but I'm not sure that the local working class people would appreciate the artistic effort and creativity required to give this local custom international appeal. Mind you, that would not be detrimental to Oliver and Toby's idea - it could be beneficial plus, plus, plus!
Lewes claims to have it's roots firmly planted in history - this idea of forcing the parochial "I remember when it was all fields round here" locals into the 21st century is magnificent and will reflect upon the new Lewes that is emerging. If this idea picks up momentum, do you plan to have a public meeting? I have access to a successful art gallery that could be used for this purpose.
On 10 Oct 2007 at 5:02pm amethyst wrote:
Be careful where you high incomers put your money, correct me if I am wrong but the last I knew the Chairman of Cliffe Bonfire Society was a Bank Manager and the Secretary of Lewes Bonfire Council has just retired as a Senior Partner in one of Lewes' Accountancy firms. Is Waterloos new Chairman a Solicitor and Commercials is a Managing Director of a sucessful company. That is to name just a few of talented, cultured people who have developed without outside influence. All Lewes Born and Bred and Educated.
If we are such a bad bunch of people why do you want to live with us - stop being so sensitive. As a well respected local artist would say "Dont try to turn Lewes into the area you couldn't quite afford".
On 12 Oct 2007 at 6:53am noel wrote:
just because we live here does not mean we must support the bigotry of bonfire.
On 12 Oct 2007 at 9:17am Its Not Rocket Science wrote:
'Bigotry of Bonfire' ??? Oh Noel, you obviously dont know what you are talking about. Bigotry is one of the main things that Bonfire stands against. Find out a few facts about what goes on in your town before making such statements. Its people like you who make such sweeping and uninformed comments that propogate so much anti bonfire sentiment.
On 12 Oct 2007 at 11:25am Andy wrote:
Well said that man! Bonfire night in Lewes is not only an important tradition but also a stand against the modern day lunarcy of political correctness. If you dont like it go home! And if you are home already sod off! NO POPERY HERE!
On 12 Oct 2007 at 11:31am kolukara09 wrote:
On 12 Oct 2007 at 2:25pm me wrote:
On 12 Oct 2007 at 2:40pm The Super K wrote:
On 12 Oct 2007 at 7:53pm Northern bigot wrote:
The traditional "remembrance"article in the programme with its strong Protestant language was recognition of the heritage and original Protestant principles of the society and a thank you to those who have gone before in upholding those principles against threats and opposition!
Other societies have caved in over both the effigy and the full bonfire prayers, they have diluted their traditions to fit in with today! Lets have the traditional article back next year with all the traditional references. Its bonfire history not carnival! NO POPERY!
On 13 Oct 2007 at 7:12am noel wrote:
in this day and age what danger does so called popery have to do with the daily lives of not only people of lewes but most people in britain, none whatsoever is the answer. also if you are concerned that this country and its society is becoming too politically correct that may be a reasonable point of view but it cannot possibly be connected with catholicism or so called popery. This country whether you prefer to call it england or great britain is mostly protestant and run by protestants, if you want to stop political correctness complain about it to your fellow religionists but dont expect shouting 'NO POPERY' to make the slightest difference.
On 13 Oct 2007 at 1:30pm Northern bigot wrote:
While some may be back tracking in Lewes and watering down bonfires original message, for all the talk of church unity, the Pope shows no sign of changing his churches view. The following headlines are from July 2007 not July 1907 or July 1607.
Times July 11th "Anglican Church is not proper says Pope" page1, on page 7 "The Vatican has described Protestantand Orthodox faiths as "not proper Churches" in a document issued with the full authority of the Pope.
Daily Mail page 11 "Protestants arent proper Christians" says Pope. Compared to the above a banner across a street for one day and a now re worded article in a bonfire programme are mild indeed!
On 14 Oct 2007 at 9:55am Amethyst wrote:
Not all Socieites have "caved" in. There is another Society with full bonfire prayers and effigies but they quietly continue their traditions. You would also be surprised how many catholics are in Bonfire (along with a dominant proportion of athiests, heathens and non believers).
On 16 Oct 2007 at 10:31am Grumpy wrote:
Oliver The Outsider: "Don't these navel-gazing "wurzels" realise that without the influx of us newcomers (with our high disposable incomes), this one-horse town would have died on its arse years ago! I don't see many of the "won't be druv" brigade supporting the local galleries, delis, independent traders & eco-friendly community projects - they're all too busy queing up at Tescos, fighting outside the kebab shop and letting off bangers morning, noon & night!"
If you don't like it you can always move back to London.
Lewes was doing well enough before it started to become a suburb of the London Borough of Brighton And Hove. The notion that the present influx of white flight middle class clones is somehow bringing civilisation to the "yokels" is as offensive as it is inaccurate.
On 28 Oct 2007 at 11:36pm rab wrote: