On 19 Jun 2016 at 8:15am SHS wrote:
Get rid of him. Never heard so much negative crap in my life, we need a leader not a feeder.
On 19 Jun 2016 at 8:38am Clifford wrote:
I've always been a bit suspicious of people who crave 'a leader', and most of all 'a strong leader'. The idea of democracy is that we, the people, rule. Politicians are there to do what we want, not the other way round.
On 19 Jun 2016 at 10:13am Mark wrote:
Agree very much Clifford. I would compare it with visiting your Gp. You describe what's wrong. GP provides wise and objective advice. When s/he is certain that you understand the issues, they ask you what you would like to do. A far cry from how Westminster operates these days. It's been shocking the way the referendum campaigns have been conducted.
On 19 Jun 2016 at 11:43am Clifford wrote:
I agree, Mark. I'm voting Leave but I've been irritated by much of the campaign from both sides. There are reasonable cases to be made for staying or leaving and it would have been useful to hear them.
On 19 Jun 2016 at 2:12pm Remain wrote:
Just to pick up on your GP analogy Mark. Presumably most people trust their GP. That's who they turn to when they get ill. You go to your GP and ask to help you and diagnose what's wrong. He has had at least 10 years of expensive medical training. He has a great deal of experience diagnosing and suggesting how to make people better and stay well. He unfortunately has to tell you it's cancer of something similar. You don't want to hear this. You put your fingers in your ears and run out of the surgery. You turn to un-proven alternative medicine and listening to your neighbours - who are not qualified in any way. You will probably become very ill or worse.
Why should I believe self serving Politicians like Boris Johnson, Gover and IDS? Why would I not believe the Institute of Fiscal studies, most economist and successful business leaders, the leaders of the NHS, Steven Hawking - the list goes on.
On 19 Jun 2016 at 2:16pm leave wrote:
Yes the list goes on..
Tony warmonger Blair - I expect you listened and believed those experts who said saddam had WMD's?
Nick Clegg who promised no tuition fees.
get a grip.
On 19 Jun 2016 at 2:45pm Remain wrote:
Is that the best you can come up with 'Leave'? I believe most of the House of Commons, including Gove and IDS agreed with Blair and no, I didn't and didn't believe in the WMDs. However, it was very difficult for anyone to be certain if they had them or not. A democratic decision was taken by Parliament, whether we personally liked it or not. I think we can believe most of the qualified people suggesting we stay. They speak with considerably more experience than the woolly claims from 'Leave'. As to to that old chestnut of Clegg and the tuition fees. The Lib Dems became part of the coalition Government. That means accepting compromise or nothing would have happened. In fact the Lib Dems did a pretty good job at ameliorating the worst excessive of the Tory Government. Look at it now, without them. Wholesale assault on disabled and benefit claiments. Highest use of Food Banks ever. Completely trashing the renewable energy business and trying to impose fracking instead.. Running down NHS. No council house building and trying to academise all schools. I could go on. So you want an even further rightwing version of the current bunch to take charge next week?
On 19 Jun 2016 at 2:52pm leave wrote:
It's up to the British people to decide the next government just because you don't like one possibility and therefore want to destroy democratic choice by handing it to brussels shows your contempt for the people who claim to care about.
On 19 Jun 2016 at 3:57pm Clifford wrote:
Remain, the whole point of not believing 'successful business leaders' is that the EU is a neo-liberal project designed to push the interests of 'successful business leaders' and bankers against the interests of the population as a whole, the majority of us. If you haven't grasped that I'm not surprised you are going to vote Remain. You seem to have missed the point of the argument.
On 19 Jun 2016 at 4:01pm Remain wrote:
Oh for pity's sake - we don't hand our democratic choice to Brussels. We've been in the EU for nearly 40 years. In that time Blair could take us into Iraq and the current bunch are happily dismantling the welfare state. I don't think Brussels has had any input into any of the above. I don't like the current government. I didn't vote for them and neither did 65% of the British electorate as it so happens. But I certainly don't want to hand what's left to an even more neo-liberal bunch of Tories. Have you actually listened to Pritti Patel? If not, I suggest you do and be very afraid.
On 19 Jun 2016 at 4:25pm leave wrote:
typical uneducated remainer - not a clue.
If the EU is so progressive why has it destroyed Greece, imposed austerity, caused 53% youth unemployment and caused 5000 suicides?
Why are JP morgan and Goldman Sachs financing the stronger in campaign to a total of 1 million quid that the so called 'progressives' of Lewes seem happy to plaster and promote all over their windows? You think these banks care about normal people?
Jeremy Corbyn could not renationalise the railways and post office under EU rules - Fact.
The EU is neoliberal and Goldman sachs former employees are installed all over the union in positions of power. It enshrined into it's laws - if you bother to take the time to read the treaties you would know this.
Perhaps you should also read about the threat to the NHS from TTIP.
your 65% argument is tiresome - I bet you voted for Tony Bliar who got a larger majority on a smaller percentage share. The answer is to agitate for electoral change not give it away to an unelected commission - that is the intelligent response.
Again the fact is you think people are too stupid to vote for the 'correct' government. Typical mindset of the luvvie metropolitan.
On 19 Jun 2016 at 4:52pm SHS wrote:
Back to the original post, @Clifford I certainly don't 'crave a leader'! Nevertheless the person elected to lead our country should ideally be qualified to do so and have the drive and authority to make things happen. Cameron lately had been depressingly negative, full of gloom, doom, warnings and threats that more befit a bullying coward at school than a prime minister. If we stay in the EU we will have more of this but not just from Cameron. There is no co-operation in the EU, just dictatorship. In the EU we will be a crab on a Gurnsey rock. Get out now.
On 19 Jun 2016 at 5:10pm Remain wrote:
Can't be bothered to reply again after this, but wasn't it our Tory UK government who has 'imposed austerity' on the UK, slowly trashing our public services. NHS, schools etc. Etc. No I didn't vote labour either so no apologist for Blair or Corbyn. I certainly don't want Ttip either. (Sounds. Eryn,I key the EU is going to,throw it out anyway). But, I don't want an appalling bunch of arch Tories in charge who will not bring about electoral change, will not be able to start building houses, put more money into social care or even begin to think about climate change because they will have trashed the economy. It's not the EU I fear, it's Farrage, Johnson and Gove being in charge that really frighten me.
On 19 Jun 2016 at 5:24pm Remain wrote:
Ps. Just heard Boris Johnson has closed the Leave Rally with the words ' ... Let's take control.' That tells me all I need to know.
On 19 Jun 2016 at 5:46pm Clifford wrote:
Remain wrote: '...wasn't it our Tory UK government who has 'imposed austerity' on the UK, slowly trashing our public services. NHS, schools etc.'
Yes, oddly enough, the Cameron/Osborn government that is falling over itself to get to you to vote to stay in the EU. Have you ever, for one moment, wondered why that is? Have you wondered why there is a siilar 'austerity' programme all over the EU? You live in a dream world in which the EU is you longed for utopia. It really isn't, you know.
On 19 Jun 2016 at 5:48pm Clifford wrote:
No, SHS, it seems you're still hankering after 'the leader'. I'm voting Leave, but I'm not looking for a leader to get us out of the hole we're in. We have to do that ourselves, collectively.
On 19 Jun 2016 at 11:50pm carrot not stick wrote:
"Remain, the whole point of not believing 'successful business leaders' is that the EU is a neo-liberal project designed to push the interests of 'successful business leaders' and bankers against the interests of the population as a whole, the majority of us. If you haven't grasped that I'm not surprised you are going to vote Remain. You seem to have missed the point of the argument."
Oh gawd, Clifford please read this article by Paul Mason. You're cutting of your nose to spite your face.
Check it out here »
On 20 Jun 2016 at 7:38am Mark wrote:
Paul Mason has been sounding like that wise and objective GP all through all of this. His diagnoses are very troubling though.