On 1 Nov 2021 at 9:27am Mister_D wrote:
If the whole point of Bonfire is to celebrate non-conformism, freedom of choice and the right to opt out of participating in organised activity against your wishes (the catholic church back then), isn't it a bit ironic that every resident of Lewes is forced to participate in the boring Bonfire thing every year? The whole town gets woken up at 6:15am and isn't allowed to sleep until about 2am, and has to endure assult by gunpowder and marching bands all night.
On 1 Nov 2021 at 11:33am Slarty wrote:
On 1 Nov 2021 at 12:39pm Mister_D wrote:
@Slarty: I think you'll find that is the idea? No Popery and all that.
On 1 Nov 2021 at 12:48pm Father Hackett wrote:
A bigger irony is that while we are hosting the last chance for climate change we are also going to pump a few more tons of CO2 and pollution into the atmosphere just to celebrate something hardly anyone outside of Lewes cares about and was hardly missed last year.
It's also archaic outdated and offensive. Time to end it.
On 1 Nov 2021 at 1:31pm Tom Pain wrote:
Time to end the anthropogenic climate change fraud, indeed. Time to examine why the original perpetrators are all multi-billionaires involved in the carbon credit scam and question why their predictions have not come true. Some hope, eh?
On 2 Nov 2021 at 8:27am Mister_D wrote:
@Father Hackett: absolutely, it's seen as a bit of a joke outside of Lewes - people talk about burning crosses and The Wicker Man. They think we're all a bit backward because of it! Plus, as you say, all that pollution.
On 2 Nov 2021 at 10:20am Tom Pain wrote:
Compare and contrast- Canary Islands volcano eruption and Lewes Bonfire, vis a vis the scale of pollution. I think the earth can handle it.
On 2 Nov 2021 at 12:28pm Mister_D wrote:
@Tom Pain, as tangentally as you might try, you're not turning this into a climate change denial post.
On 2 Nov 2021 at 12:56pm Nevillman wrote:
Good luck with telling Tom to keep to the point of the thread mister d. It will be about vaccinations in a minute.
To return to your original point, I think you are incorrect in saying bonfire is all about celebrating non conformity. It is actually about many things and everyone will have their own list of things it is about. These will include community, celebration of winter, fire, membership of a group, excuse to get drunk and celebrate, free show, reason for family to get together etc as well as celebrating non conformity for some. It's a shame if someone can't find a reason to enjoy it but I suppose some people enjoy complaining so even they enjoy it in their own way. The early morning maroon really seems selfish and annoying but I would so short of saying that it forces you to participate. Bonfire is part of living in Lewes and you have to take the rough with the smooth.
On 2 Nov 2021 at 2:31pm Mister_D wrote:
Well, at least your response was reasonable Nevillman. I can't help feeling though that you've just attached a whole load of your own meanings to what is essentially a sectarian parade. You could just as easily attach all those nice things to any public event, and Bonfire is not a celebration of winter - it's not actually the winter (that's Yuletide anyway).
On 2 Nov 2021 at 3:01pm Slarty wrote:
In the same way that Remembrance day is not anti-German, IMHO, Bonfire Night is not sectarian. The origins is a celebration of the saving of the King and Parliament.
The remembering of the Protestant Martyrs is an add-on in some places (including Lewes) because of the similarity of the attempted overthrow of the Protestant King and the killing of the Martyrs that would not renounce their religion.
The celebrations in Sussex have further evolved to include a remembrance of those who fought and died in wars. This is probably (I guess) only added on because of the proximity to Remembrance Day.
I think the reason anyone does it today is mainly because of enjoyment and tradition. I can't see anybody doing bonfire just because they are a non-conformist, protesting about freedom of choice and/or the right to opt out of participating in organised activity against their wishes.
On 2 Nov 2021 at 3:23pm Mister_D wrote:
The banners do kind of suggest the motivation.. I appreciate your points but they feel a bit like sophistry to excuse what really is a sectarian celebration that's all about creating an in-group (and so necessarily an out-group). That it now has overtones of nationalism by incorporating Remembrance day just proves the point. That (Remembrance Day) may not be explicitely anti-German but it sure doesn't help foster international relations does it? All these things feed into a generally antagonistic, xenophobic mindset that can erupt in things like Brexit, and much like Brexit I resent being made to participate.
On 2 Nov 2021 at 3:24pm Tom Pain wrote:
Er, Nev. I was replying to Fr.Hackett, if you don't mind.
On 2 Nov 2021 at 5:35pm Horseman7 wrote:
I like the early maroon. It wakes me up with a start, then I go back to sleep. It all feels rather familiar and comforting.
On 2 Nov 2021 at 6:09pm Green Sleeves wrote:
From one conspiracy theory to another, Tom is having a whale of a time. As for his little Canary Volcano vs Lewes bonfire analogy, its worth noting one is a natural event, the latter is a trivial, ghoulish tradition by humans that will also help boost covid infections. But i guess that opens up another conspiracy theory for resident "free-thinker" Tom Pain. I just hope the ivermectin tablets are being handed out to all the revelers as a precaution.....just in case covid is real (which it isn't, of course).
On 2 Nov 2021 at 8:16pm David Stanley wrote:
It's comforting to know we can still annoy the gentrifiers.
On 2 Nov 2021 at 8:29pm Mister_D wrote:
@David Stanley: I think this is a culture war that exists only in your head, a brave war waged with sparklers, bangers and papier mache. The kids enjoy it I suppose.
On 2 Nov 2021 at 10:11pm David Stanley wrote:
Aren't you going to tell us about your degree?
On 2 Nov 2021 at 11:18pm Tom Pain wrote:
Well great green brain, what was the gunpowder plot? A theory?
On 2 Nov 2021 at 11:45pm Local99 wrote:
Well, there are some prize examples on this thread of people who are probably only just visible for a few more seconds before they disappear fully up themselves.
As the original poster can't even get the time of the morning maroon correct, I reckon it's fair to assume that at least one of them is merely on the wind-up – if not most of the rest too.
On 3 Nov 2021 at 7:28am Mister_D wrote:
All I know is the maroon is too damned early, I wonder how you'd feel if I did that to you one day every year? But as some of the posters on here have shown, Bonfire is really all about division, spite, and keeping grievances alive. If only it were a celebration of something.
On 3 Nov 2021 at 9:38am Tom Pain wrote:
Some people will use it to keep gievances alive, they'll use anything. Like brexit, for instance; it's hard not to fall into these traps. I think Slarty summed it up very well, you take it as you find it.
On 3 Nov 2021 at 10:07am Green Sleeves wrote:
Brexit is a genuine grievance though, the consequences already being felt (wow, you mean "project fear" were realistic concerns that turned out to be accurate?), all because the stoopider, credulous and nationalistic voters in this country bought into the con of "EU Bad and red tapey, Britain proud and GREAT" narrative and lies on a tory bus led by notorious liar Boris Johnson.
As for Bonfire night - attended a couple of times, novelty has worn off now. Its just noisy, inconvenient, messy, wasteful and mildly dangerous, and causes anxieties in animals. All for what? Are we meant to care about a plot 400 years ago in a country nothing like what it is today? The only parallel of today, is that both timelines are in the middle of a plague! Better wear those masks on Friday....
On 3 Nov 2021 at 3:34pm David Stanley wrote:
Does the laughter and enjoyment of children really cause you such grief?
There's always Eastbourne....
On 3 Nov 2021 at 4:18pm Nevillman wrote:
Mister d, I told you some of the things that bonfire means to me and many other people but you appear to be telling me that I am either wrong, lying our mistaken and I actually do it because I hate Catholics. Who do you think you are? If trying to upset people who like bonfire amuses you then fine,I can take it and it certainly makes a change from asking what time the parade starts and what's the best place to stand with a pram and 6 kids under 5. Sorry in advance if my enjoyment ruins your day.
On 3 Nov 2021 at 7:16pm Mister_D wrote:
@Nevilleman: Oh come on, it's a sharing of ideas between consenting adults i.e. a conversation! Just to reiterate: your enjoyment of the stupid Bonfire does not ruin my day per se, it's the fact that I'm also forced to 'enjoy' it. I hope you see the difference!
On 3 Nov 2021 at 7:26pm Mister_D wrote:
@Tom P: fair point about the B-word.
On 3 Nov 2021 at 7:51pm Mister_D wrote:
But that tone of yours, Nevilleman - how DARE you question things that bring such joy to others.. isn't that exactly the point? I can imagine the authorities hurding the soon-to-burn martyrs down into the cellar thinking exactly the same: how DARE you have un-orthodox ideas that bring such joy to others! Bonfire irony.
On 3 Nov 2021 at 8:17pm Mister_D wrote:
* un-orthodox ideas about things that bring..
On 3 Nov 2021 at 11:34pm Tom Pain wrote:
Of course. I get it.Bonfire's a gammon thing isnt it? No wonder the vaping viper hates it. All those messy, inconvenient gammon whooping it up enjoying themselves in a politically incorrect manner, not being carbon neutered, how utterly frightful dear boy. Think of the germs they breathe! You stay indoors duckie, put a cold compress on your fevered brow and dream of a nice clean world without those horrid people.
On 3 Nov 2021 at 11:46pm Nevillman wrote:
Mister d, I really don't object to you criticising bonfire at all and in all honesty, having re-read my post, I can't think why you think I do. I objected to you suggesting that I participate in it and enjoy it because it is a sectarian parade and not accepting my explanation for why I enjoy it. I'm sorry if my tone upset you. Like you I thought it was a sharing of ideas between consenting adults and hope to continue to do so with you.
On 4 Nov 2021 at 7:48am Mister_D wrote:
Nevilleman, your tone didn't upset me, I just thought it added to the irony, IF the Bonfire thing is about celebrating unorthodoxy. Obviously I'm not saying you enjoy it because you hate catholics! I'm saying all those good things you have come to associate it with could be attached to any public event - maybe a different public event that's not essentially about division and deliberately pissing people off (to read some comments here, that does seem to be an element they cherish).
On 4 Nov 2021 at 9:20am endoftheouse wrote:
For me the daytime of the 5th welcoming our Scottish friends who travel down each year and going on a pub crawl around the Pubs meeting up with the old faces from the 80's is so much better than watching the repetitive glum striped jumpers walking the roads in the evening. Come out early and enjoy the party! G.S.T.Q
On 4 Nov 2021 at 1:51pm Father Hackett wrote:
The same old boring stripey jumper costumes. The same old boring banners. The same old boring bands playing the same old boring music. The same old everything as every other boring year.
Boring. Boring. Boring.
Now waiting for the same old boring arguments for it.
On 4 Nov 2021 at 3:40pm Green Sleeves wrote:
@TP - the gammon thing hadn't even occurred to me, but perhaps gammons might be more easily amused by such trivial and tedious traditions that give them some primitive sense of tribal being. Bless 'em.
@ Father Hackett now speaking facts.
On 4 Nov 2021 at 3:57pm Nevillman wrote:
All part of the tradition father. It's another part of the appeal for many people. I'm glad your life is so interesting that bonfire coming round once a year feels like the same old thing. I'm sorry if it prevents you from doing whatever other interesting thing you would be doing instead. Just do your best to ignore it. I'm not going to try to give you the boring arguments for it as I don't think you are interested in them.
On 4 Nov 2021 at 4:11pm Mister_D wrote:
Every utterly predictable year.. like that Slade song at the next inevitable pin in the calendar, Christmas The pandemic was almost a relief.