On 9 Dec 2011 at 8:13am kevsy wrote:
So who was Cameron representing when he operated last night. Was that the opinion of the Lib Dem members of the coalition, or for that matter the majority of pro Europe or neutral Tory MP's. Or just 90 odd anti European right wing Tory MP's?
Has he left us high and dry as a country with no growth, no friends and no prospects? A dangerous spot when the world is in financial turmoil. Has he achieved a greater step backwards from Europe than either Thatcher or Major wanted or achieved?
Anyone else out there a little worried or are you proud of Dave for sticking up for us?
On 9 Dec 2011 at 8:22am DFL wrote:
Just a tad worried, as his backing out of discussions sends the signal that the UK is not interested in the Eurozone, bad news all round - watch the stock market plummet !!
On 9 Dec 2011 at 11:37am Red Ken wrote:
We need a saviour. Bring back Tony Blair.
On 9 Dec 2011 at 12:24pm Clifford wrote:
If you mean for trial Red Ken, I agree. On Europe, Cameron is in a difficult position, with his right wing pulling one way, the Lib Dems the other... John Major must be sitting at home shaking his head to see the party on the way to tearing itself apart again.
On 9 Dec 2011 at 1:04pm Zebedee wrote:
The UK has no special relation with the US and is now marginalised in Europe. Cameron has sold us down the river for his silver-spoon private-school network city chums, the same banks, financial institutions, shareholder, hedge funds and stock market wheeler dealers that got us into this mess (and that we bailed out) in the first place. It's sick and will mark a huge acceleration in the decline of our once great country.
On 9 Dec 2011 at 1:38pm Dingo wrote:
I couldn`t have put it better myself Zebedee,absolutely spot on.
On 9 Dec 2011 at 1:40pm DFL wrote:
Only Ken can save us....
On 9 Dec 2011 at 2:04pm Rational Adult wrote:
What a load of complete bollox! Who on earth wants to be a bigger part of a failed 'project' which only continues because of the vested interests of millions of unelected pen-pushers who are on the gravy train. The fewer politicians and bureaucrats running our lives, the better...
On 9 Dec 2011 at 2:10pm Deelite wrote:
Cameron is a man out of his depth if ever i saw one
On 9 Dec 2011 at 2:42pm sosyslola wrote:
On 9 Dec 2011 at 3:12pm Proud wrote:
I don't want to be dictated to by France and Germany who are each only trying to protect their own interests on the currency issue.
On 9 Dec 2011 at 4:24pm bastian wrote:
he got caught between the devil and the deep blue sea..and he chose the devil..yes, he protected the interests of the banks over european stability. as you say, since we paid off that huge loan from the war in 2006 we no longer have a special relationship with America so indeed we are high and dry,with no industry and banks not loaning to small business...As usual he has served himself first and his chums in the city.
On 9 Dec 2011 at 4:24pm bastian wrote:
On 9 Dec 2011 at 7:26pm Zebedee wrote:
Well we are going to be dictated to by France and Germany now Proud, the main powers in our largest trading block. If we were in Europe we'd have had an equal footing with the two countries and had our say in policy. Now we have no say in anything and are are ruled by the city spivs, the de-regularised profiteers and chancers.
Seems an easy choice to me, to be one of the three strong powers determining the future of Europe in a powerful trading block or to be governed by the de-regularised city institutions, by the mentality that got us into this mess on the first place.
On 9 Dec 2011 at 7:43pm Proud wrote:
Zebedee, have you noticed that France and Germany have been talking about a rescue package for months and deadline after deadline has been missed. They are just stumbling along with no proper direction. You wait, in a couple of months they will be asking David Cameron to reconsider and he might just be able to get the deal he was seeking.
On 9 Dec 2011 at 8:08pm bastian wrote:
Germany is stable because it actually makes things to export..France has a wine industry...Britain has......
cluster bombs and pinewood studios
It iasn't enough.
On 9 Dec 2011 at 8:23pm Zebedee wrote:
...and a powerful de-regularised financial heart. The source of all the mess. Cameron want to keep it, so much so that he is happy to have no say in Europe.
BTW. As Cameron admits the future of Europe is integral to the future of the UK... so wtf did the stupid cretin put the UK in such a position that it has no say in the future of Europe? Yeah I know, rock and a hard place. He still got it wrong, put the future of the Tory party, it's sponsors and their governance well in front of the interests of the country (i.e. us!).
27 on one side, UK on the other. Hard to think he and the entirely out-of-date throwback Tory party got it right.
Don't forget, there is no US with us any longer. It is the UK, alone. China, Asia, Europe, USA, even the fookin' South Americas are so much bigger than this tiny hole we live in. We have to get over our past and see our country as it is. England (not even the fragmenting UK) needs all the friends we can get.
On 9 Dec 2011 at 8:57pm Fairmeadow wrote:
As someone else said today, we have given away our ticket for the Titanic's maiden voyage.
We may be in an economic mess, but no one in Europe was going to help us out. They will have more than enough trouble bailing themselves out.
I'm not a Cameron fan, but what else could he do?
On 9 Dec 2011 at 10:50pm the old mayor wrote:
We need to start making things again, build some factories and get making real stuff.
On 10 Dec 2011 at 6:10am Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
The one I thought was in his favour was that he wasn't an idiot. Now he's behaved like one, I'm not so sure.
To slap the face of our biggest trading partner in these dire times is reckless lunacy. He didn't have to sign up to a new treaty, just agree to renegotiate. That's all he needed to commit to. He's scared of the nutjobs in his party, and in thrall to the City who can't bear the thought that they might miss another opportunity to make gazillions from dodgy dealings and get away with a bailout at our expense when it all goes wrong.
If I was a Eurozone resident I'd be boycotting British goods from now on, even if it meant never eating marmite again. And look what the beef ban did for farmers - nearly ruined them.
On 10 Dec 2011 at 8:58am Zebedee wrote:
We are now well on the way to be a country run for the benefit of a small financial elite by their stooges the Tory party while the vast majority of its inhabitant get increasingly poorer. The gap between the rich and the poor in this country has increased more than any other in Europe over the past 20 years (fact) but I'm afraid we have not seen anything yet.
David Cameron acted purely in the interest of the Tory party and it's powerful backers. He put party well ahead of country. He should be strung up, as should most of the Tory party.
The UK: Consigned to the dustbin of history.
On 10 Dec 2011 at 9:20am kevsy wrote:
Zebedee, completely agree and am constantly confused how they manage to hoodwink enough 'Britannia Rules the Waves' types to keep voting for them while we continue to sink into the depths
On 10 Dec 2011 at 9:37am bastian wrote:
there is alot of misinformation strewn about the daily mail to sink a battle ship..as long as people have got the x factor and strickly they don't have to think, bread and circus'.Don't worry about the country, turn your brain off and watch the idiots on the idiot box.
On 10 Dec 2011 at 12:16pm Rational Adult wrote:
I repeat from earlier; what a load of old bollox you're spouting! There are plenty of countries not in Europe who trade with it, profit from it, govern themselves, and do just fine. Precisely why won't the UK be one of these? Please explain.
On 10 Dec 2011 at 1:25pm Clifford wrote:
Rational Adult wrote: '... a failed 'project' which only continues because of the vested interests of millions of unelected pen-pushers who are on the gravy train.'
170,000. Too many, I know. And most corruptly appointed through national quotas and being 'sponsored' by a cousin or a father in law already working there. I only inow one - he mugged up the test, passed it, waited a while, got a job in the office his brother in law worked in, then sat back to enjoy the perks (that included a 1% mortgage, subsidised shops, restaurants, travel... But not millions.
On 10 Dec 2011 at 6:36pm drone wrote:
Recall the famous old Torygraph headline... "Fog in the English Channel. Europe isolated"
On 10 Dec 2011 at 8:02pm I dont live in lewes... wrote:
Dunno about end game for UK power. What are the chances of 26 countries all agreeing on which way Europe should go?
Greece is broke, Ireland is broke, the mafia have more say in what goes on in Italy than the government... and likely more cash and aprox' a third of the remainder are collection of old soviet states. Also out of the 26 there's some who will have to have referendums
Welcome to the get a long gang.
Euroland is far from solving it's problems and if history is anything to go by I wouldn't hold your breath.
Wait till the Eurocats start hiking taxes for the lucky 26, then tell them how to run their home affairs and punish them if they don't do as they're told.
They won't stay chummies for long.
Europe clearly doesn't work for us, we‚??ve never fully embraced it.
Must be referendum time surely.
On 10 Dec 2011 at 8:35pm Dr.Getwell -Quick. wrote:
You seem to be suffering from a bad case of anti European little Englander superiority syndrome.Come over here while I syringe out what`s left of your brain.It won`t take second!
On 10 Dec 2011 at 8:51pm The Old Right wrote:
The only supprise to come out of all this is that Cameron is actually a Conservative after all. Who'd have thought that!
On 10 Dec 2011 at 9:38pm Zebedee wrote:
"Euroland is far from solving it's problems and if history is anything to go by I wouldn't hold your breath".
Some of Europe's past 'problems' resulted in wars, the two most recent being so devastating that anyone who has any understanding of them would not consider any chance of something close to them happening again worth risking. At base the raison d'etre of the community Europe is to avoid any European wars by working out differences or 'problems' together.
You should think about that before the let your breath out
On 11 Dec 2011 at 2:41am Really? wrote:
The Euro is a miserable mess and Cameron took the right decision. He made his position clear before the summit started - that he would not agree to any treaty-within-a-treaty that damaged the UK's interests.
So agreeing to what the EU wanted which would have meant a more heavily taxed and regulated financial sector would have disproportionally affected the London financial markets. Whatever people feel about the bail-outs etc, the fact is we need the city of London to be healthy as it contributes a large amount of tax to the economy.
The Euro will limp along or fail (I think fail) but Cameron correctly using his veto will not make any difference to the Euro either way - but does mean we didn't (for once!) sign up to legislation or treaties that damage us.
I know from first hand experience that Italy has suffered massively right from the very first moment the Euro was adopted. Their standard of living dropped quite significantly and has never recovered.
If or when the Euro collapses it will be a painful financial mess but in the long-run it has to happen. Trying to tie different economies together which run at different rates never could and never will work.
On 11 Dec 2011 at 6:06am Zebedee wrote:
We need the de-regularised City of London financial markets like we need a hole in the head. The market desperately needs to be re-regulated to stop us getting into the same mess again. The Tories have failed to do this (and will continue to do this as long as they are backed and funded by the very same institutions). Europe would tackle it. Cameroon has marginalised the UK to keep the city working in spiv mode. Personally I resent having mortgaged my children's future for this. We have been sold down the river and are being taken for fools... how can anyone think this situation is right? Frankly, it beggars belief. It is plainly indefensible.
On 11 Dec 2011 at 8:52am Annette Curtin-Twitcher wrote:
Spot on, Zebedee.
Cameron has put political expediency and his city paymasters above the interests of the country and of Europe. To paraphrase Lyndon B Johnson, better to be inside the tent p*ssing out than outside the tent p*ssing in.
Funny how the Eurosceptic right aren't saying how sensible Gordo was to keep us out of the Eurozone, too, dontcha think?
On 11 Dec 2011 at 11:10am Clifford wrote:
Zebedee: It is painfully unhistorical to claim there has been no European war because the EU exists; the EU exists because the main European states have nothing to fight about any more, their empires (or, in Germany's case, desire for an empire) having gone. What do you imagine Britain, France and Germany have had to fight about since, say, 1960?
On 11 Dec 2011 at 11:22am i dont live in lewes... wrote:
"Euroland is far from solving it's problems and if history is anything to go by I wouldn't hold your breath".
"Some of Europe's past 'problems' resulted in wars, the two most recent being so devastating that anyone who has any understanding of them would not consider any chance of something close to them happening again worth risking. At base the raison d'etre of the community Europe is to avoid any European wars by working out differences or 'problems' together.
You should think about that before the let your breath out"
Thanxs for the advice on breathing
Agree about recent wars. Angela Merkle has already said the continent faces its gravest hour since 1945 (a bit of an expert on such matters I‚??d say). She‚??s under imense pressure as her country folk are fed up putting their hands in their wallets subsidising failed economies.
Truth is that Europe may well have the Euro but has no fiscal union among member economies and with such rich/poor divergence is unlikely to solve the problem no matter how much chat or treaty.
On 11 Dec 2011 at 11:24am Southover Queen wrote:
I do think exactly that, ACT. See Will Hutton's remarkable analysis in the Observer today.
Check it out here »
On 11 Dec 2011 at 12:48pm Clifford wrote:
i dont live in lewes... wrote: 'Angela Merkle has already said the continent faces its gravest hour since 1945 (a bit of an expert on such matters I‚??d say). She‚??s under imense pressure as her country folk are fed up putting their hands in their wallets subsidising failed economies.'
Though, of course, it has been the 'failed economies' that have been buying Germany's exports, making her the rich economy she is. That Germany had to end them the money to do so (as the Chinese have had to lend the US money to buy their products) is one of the fascinating irrationalities of capitalism.
On 11 Dec 2011 at 2:16pm Really? wrote:
Same old stuff here. It was the Tories who failed to regulate the banks?? And there was I thinking we had been under a labour government for the previous 11 years...
On 11 Dec 2011 at 3:48pm i dont live in lewes... wrote:
Hi Clifford, Yes it is ironic that Germany may have to give financial support to some of the countries that made it wealthy. Its prime export market is within the euro zone where many economies are struggling with debt issues, weakening demand for German exports.
On 11 Dec 2011 at 5:22pm Rational Adult wrote:
There is STILL mainly bollox being spouted on this thread! And Will Hutton's paid left-wing newspaper scribblings are not gospel either. The Euro is a failed pipe-dream, and little that I've seen eminating from this latest summit will calm the markets' fears and prevent the next "x-long to save the Euro" crises in the coming months...
On 11 Dec 2011 at 6:16pm oops wrote:
Thatcher deregulated the financial markets. Labour did not put it right. They should have done, just as they should have sorted out debt and the housing market. They didn't. They are pretty crap too, but not as crap as the selfish, self-serving party. They are evil.
On 12 Dec 2011 at 12:37am Rational Adult wrote:
Some perspective, please. The likes of Mugabe are evil...
On 12 Dec 2011 at 9:25am Southover Queen wrote:
Rational (?) Adult wrote: "Will Hutton's paid left-wing newspaper scribblings are not gospel either."
Indeed. Where exactly did I say that they were "gospel"? They are however an analysis of what happened on Friday written by someone whose business it is to study the interplay of economics and employment whose point of view is worth considering. Why is it a problem that he is paid for his work? I thought even the most Eurosceptic right wing Tories agreed that a labourer is worthy of his hire. So rather than dismiss his piece because you don't like his politics, how about reading his piece and telling me why that's wrong?
Cameron's an Eton educated used car salesman without the life experience or intellectual clout to appease the jingoists and whose forays into foreign policy have so far been disastrous. Britain is no longer the centre of empire: we don't even make anything any more since Thatcher closed down manufacturing. One of the few success stories we have left are the creative industries, and the right wing is hell bent on destroying that too.
Spitting in the face of our closest trading neighbours is a bad move, however you look at it. Spitting in their faces for absolutely no result except to appease Bernard Jenkin and William Cash is pure parish pump foolishness.