On 26 Feb 2018 at 11:07am Bob wrote:
It must be easy - all he has to do is stay a couple of steps behind the Tories and adjust his stance on the hoof to maintain the popular vote. Is he doing it for the greater good of the Country or for his own gain?
On 26 Feb 2018 at 11:27am Deja Vu wrote:
But don't forget that he also seems like a non self serving decent human being, which is more than can be said for the majority of politicians.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 11:32am Bob wrote:
@Deja Vu, didn't you say goodbye to this forum a few weeks ago? Or maybe you are imposter......
On 26 Feb 2018 at 11:56am Canít believe what I just read wrote:
Jabba the Abbott is on Question Time this week with Farage!!!
Sheís probably having secret maths lessons right now
On 26 Feb 2018 at 11:57am Country Life wrote:
I agree with Deja Vu, Corbyn seems like a principled person, rare for a politician. Ironically it would be having principles that would mean he could never be Prime Minister...
On 26 Feb 2018 at 12:09pm @Bob wrote:
I mainly said goodbye to Lewes.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 12:46pm Andymac wrote:
Deja vu - I have no doubt that many members of the Nazi party, and of the communist parties of Mao and Stalin weren't self-seeking and went about their murderous work in a spirit of self-sacrifice and dedication to the greater good (as they perceived it). While Corbyn isn't a murderer (despite some of the company he has kept in the past), the same principle applies to him: simply having principles does not make one virtuous. Let's not forget that most of the misery and destruction over the past couple of centuries in Europe has been caused by politicians and their minions with a fervent belief that their cause, their methods, their aims, are unquestionably right. Corbyn is, like these people, a rigid ideologue who will do anything to achieve power, and therefore changing a few messages or policies here and there along the way is irrelevant as long as it helps him to achieve that end: once he has achieved it, all bets are off, and he will do as he wants. If you believe that a hard left socialist fairyland, in which both the people and most economic activity are subordinated to the controlling will of the state, is the best possible future for this country, you may agree with him.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 12:53pm Deja Vu wrote:
Andy get a grip on reality...
On 26 Feb 2018 at 1:05pm Andymac wrote:
Corbyn and his fellow travellers are ideologically driven supporters of an extreme left brand of socialism. Even within the Labour Party at the moment, there are plenty of recent examples of where Corbynista hard left ideological purity within the party organisationis seen as more important than anything else. Which bit of that is diverging from reality?
On 26 Feb 2018 at 1:16pm Pedro wrote:
@ andymac, i'll have to re-check the Corbyn/Labour manifesto from last year, but pretty sure it was largely pursuing policies that reflect modern day scandinavian nations and other european social democrat countries, with popular support for re-nationalising the railways, utilities and a more progressive tax system to better fund the NHS, Schools and policing....rather than undemocratic mid 20th century Soviet Union policies of a fully planned economy, no significant free market or external trading, and overwhelmingly large defence budgets.
Yep, just checked, my memory serves me well and Corbyn is, quel surprise, not pushing for a new USSR. The facts are always disappointingly bland when it comes to Corbyn if you are used to right-wing propaganda harking back to the cold war by the Mail, Sun and Express etc.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 2:15pm Andymac wrote:
Pedro, as mentioned earlier, Corbyn and his chums will do anything to get their hands on the levers of power, and if that includes softening the messages they give out, then I don't think they have a problem with doing so. But even if you disagree with me, the messaging does still give them a bit of a challenge - if Jeremy and John McD and their chums have really given up on the hard left views which they've loudly proclaimed for many years, and are now just a bunch of cuddly pseudo-Nordic social democrats, doesn't that rather imply that they are unprincipled chancers who will do anything to get elected, thus making them the same as every other politician? Isn't that just what Jeremy has been trying hard to persuade us he isn't? On the other hand, if they haven't given up their hard left beliefs and intentions but are seeking to disguise them to make themselves more electorally palatable, doesn't that make them fundamentally untrustworthy - just like every other politician? Whichever way you slice it......
On 26 Feb 2018 at 2:50pm Bob wrote:
"Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has backed the UK being in a permanent customs union with the EU in a speech setting out his approach to Brexit".
"Asked what would happen if the EU said no to his proposal, he said "we would continue talking to them because that's how you reach agreement".
Cuckoo land springs to mind........
On 26 Feb 2018 at 2:52pm @Bob wrote:
"Cuckoo land springs to mind.."
Oh the irony...
On 26 Feb 2018 at 2:59pm Pete wrote:
If I went into a shop for a pair of trousers and wanted them for nothing, how long would I have to keep talking?
On 26 Feb 2018 at 3:15pm Pedro wrote:
@andymac, have you never changed your views on anything over the years or at least observed some sort of evolution of them? I know I have on many issues. Whether that means Corbyn has softened his "hard left" views as you would phrase it, is maybe up for discussion, but from interviews, his manifesto, his voting record in parliament over the past decade, seems pretty reasonable and mainstream to me, and even if he's compromising some of his core values for the unity of his party and the mood of the nation and putting that first, is not an unwelcome strategy in my eyes. I'm not going to hold it against him forever about occasional meetings with people you find undesirable with the goal to push for peace, as any politician worth their salt will have engaged in private discussions with individuals and/or groups that some people would deem as dubious or even loathsome.
Also, if you win an election based on a false manifesto, you're not going to get particularly far in our democratic parliamentary system, where everything has to go through both houses. I think Corbyn is a pragmatist/realist in this sense, and he is probably shrewd enough to realise he won't get ultimate support to dismantle trident for example, but if he can get some traction on things like re-nationalisation of specific industries that do carry popular support and other social issues that he cares about, then that would be an achievement. I seriously doubt Corbyn has been biding his time on the backbenches for 3 decades waiting ever-impatiently to get into power - he was as surprised to be where he is as much as the rest of us are. Most people never heard of Corbyn or McDonnell before 2015, and are now heavily googling the archives to find any dirt, or indeed counter arguments to refute aforementioned dirt. So far on balance, Corbyn has not come out as a horrendous figure that we should be deeply concerned with, at least from what I've seen. It tends to just be slurs and smears from right-wingers portraying him as something he's not....i.e some sort of czech informant/spy.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 3:48pm Andymac wrote:
Pedro - like any sensible person, of course I have changed my views on a range of things over the years. But my point about Corbyn and his gang is that up to a couple of years ago, they had never shown any sign of changing any of the hard left views they have held and expressed over many years. Yet suddenly, we are to believe that this is what has happened? Pull the other one. Aside from anything else, if Jeremy is really just a mainstream moderate who is compromising his views for the sake of party unity (as you seem to imply), what is driving the Corbynista-led purges at many levels of the Labour party? Is it his commitment to moderation that is permitting the readmission to the Labour party of some genuinely nasty extremists? And while we're at it, the tiresome Corbynista canard about 'Jeremy only met nasty people in the past because he was searching for peace' really needs to be put to rest. Corbyn, McDonnell and the rest met nasty people whose ends they supported, and they made their support for those ends very clear. Their condemnation of the methods used to achieve those ends was much less vocal and much less clearcut.
If you genuinely believe Corbyn and his chums are a bunch of cuddly moderate social democrats, dedicated to peace, love and just being gosh-darned nice, then go for it. I daresay that twenty years ago you also believed that Tony Blair was a pretty straight kind of guy.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 3:50pm Bob wrote:
Corbyn was so keen to get his hands on the levers of power that he waited over 30 years to run for leader - that's quite the long game Andymac! What a despot!
On 26 Feb 2018 at 4:10pm Andymac wrote:
Bob - I agree with one of the points Pedro made earlier, and to which you allude: I don't think Corbyn did ever think he'd get a chance at power, and that it is really only by combination of (for him) happy timing and luck that he is now in the position he is. But now that he is in that position, I think he will - like any other politician - do whatever it takes to achieve it, including falsely (imho) spinning hiself and his gang as just nice caring people with no ideological axes to grind.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 4:45pm Deja Vu wrote:
Meanwhile back in the "real world", Corbyn is a very small cog in a very large machine, that small cog (as annoying and hard to shift as he is for the party) doesn't set party policies.
Whether he changes his personal views or not is irrelevant, he has changed his professional view now that he is a party leader.
The mere suggestion that this man is performing a leftwing takeover, let alone that he's been waiting for 30 years to do it, laughable.
If you want to talk about politicians that are a danger to the country (although through ineptitude and incompetence), I suggest we talk about Camoron and May. I agree Corbyn isn't going to set the world alight, but that's the point, he isn't going to set the world alight...
On 26 Feb 2018 at 4:54pm Pedro wrote:
@ andymac, did you closely follow McDonnell and Corbyn prior to their political mainstream emergence in 2015? You know that just being labelled as "hard left" by the right-wing media does not necessarily make him that, let alone some "danger" to the country. His voting record in parliament (lets go from late 90s to pre his party leadership) seems to be largely reasonable and responsible, and dare I say it, turned out to be quite right on a number of issues. Obviously not an exhaustive list but here are some highlights/lowlights (obviously pending on your political bend) :
* 23 votes since 1999-2014 in favour of equal gay rights
* 7 votes in 2003-4 voting for a ban on fox hunting
*7 Votes consistently in support of equal gay marriage from 2004-14
*6 votes consistently AGAINST the Iraq War in 2003
*5 votes in favour of fairly raising disability benefits
*voted against raising tuition fee cap in 2010 and consistently voted against tuition fees since 1997.
*21 votes in favour of measures to prevent climate change.
*numerous votes against the privatisation of Royal Mail in recent years
*9 votes to increase income tax on those earning over £150k
The list goes on and on, and sure, I concede with my own bias I have cherry picked certain issues to demonstrate reasonable consistency, and views showing he is more or less on the right side of history (on Iraq, marriage equality, human rights etc), but going through it all just now hasn't unearthed any deep concerns that would make me question his judgement and suitability as either leader of the opposition, constituency MP for Islington or even potential PM....
On 26 Feb 2018 at 5:04pm Pedro wrote:
@ andymac - I never voted for Tony Blair. I was too young in 1997 to vote anyway, but being raised in a fairly blue/tory household in one of the safest tory constituencies in the country, I don't recall being overjoyed by "New Labour", and never voted for him in 2001 or 2005. I don't recall ever feeling though there was a valid Conservative leader that would have done anything differently in terms of the "bad" stuff, i.e the Iraq War though. You can bet your bottom dollar that Hague, Portillo, IDS, Howard et al would have all been palling up with George W Bush on his christian/oil crusades in the middle east just as ol' Lionel Blair did, judging by their own voting records in parliament at that time. It seemed only the Liberal Democrats and Labour backbenchers were opposed to war (outside of Westminster)....including Corbyn, McDonnell...
On 26 Feb 2018 at 5:29pm Andymac wrote:
Like I say Pedro, if you really believe Corbyn and his chums are just a group of nice warm and cuddly moderates, you go for it, I suspect no-one will convince you otherwise: blind unquestioning faith is usually pretty difficult to shift. But a word of advice - if you are trying to put forward a convincing argument which influences those who disagree with you, it's usually better not to admit that you've only selected the evidence which supports your own side. Kinda loses a lot of impact if you do that.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 5:53pm Pedro wrote:
@andymac - Oh come on, play nice - I was being up front and honest that I took the highlights (from my perspective) of his voting record to show here in one post, but ALSO stated that I reviewed them all and nothing demonstrated anything that was inconsistent over the past 20 years (or perhaps more importantly, nothing deeply troubling) from the Corbyn "leader of the Labour party".
Just as you feel that nobody can convince me otherwise about Corbyn (which is actually untrue), i sense that you have made your mind up about him with perhaps partisan cynicism. I am certainly no "Corbynista", and was a skeptic when he rose to leadership in 2015, but have seen nothing of any note that would suggest he is anything like the way he is portrayed by the right wing press.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 7:10pm Andymac wrote:
My point remains valid Pedro - you negate your own argument by being selective about evidence. Simply admitting you've done so doesn't strengthen your cause. My own views on St Jezza are partly driven by his history - his willingness to cheerlead for what he regards as ideologically acceptable terrorists of various brands being a case in point - and partly by the various current indications of his incompetence, lack of judgment or untrustworthiness. These include economic illiteracy ('free stuff for all - the rich fat cats will pay!' is not a realistic basis for the future) his ideological insistence that a programme of mass nationalisation will lead to better services (is this evidence based or just because that's what socialist theory says?), blind support for ideologically approved repressive foreign regimes (Good old Fidel/Chavez/Hamas), visceral anti-Americanism (NATO is a problem, not a solution), a fundamentally unclear defence policy (Trident - yes/no?), a position on Brexit driven by short term anti-Toryism and opportunism, rather than any genuine conviction or coherence, and his tolerance of intolerance among his own supporters (there is no anti-Semitism within the Labour Party - the woman i've just nominated for a peerage has said so). And that's just off the top of my head.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 7:28pm Clifford wrote:
Andymac wrote: 'Pedro, as mentioned earlier, Corbyn and his chums will do anything to get their hands on the levers of power'
If that's true Andy why didn't they just follow the Blair/Brown neo-liberal line through the 90s and 'get their hands on the levers of power'? It wouldn't have been difficult, would it?
On 26 Feb 2018 at 8:05pm Pedro wrote:
@andymac - you are nitpicking because you know your arguments are falling short and floundering. Go and look at the www.theyworkforyou.com site and see for yourself Corbyns voting record in full - I was only selecting highlights, but couldn't find anything troubling throughout, hence why the list I put in a post was just of his votes that make me feel that he is worthy of support and praise. I could put them ALL, however it would be a wall of text, and I've been criticised for doing that on here in the past. Nothing that Corbyn has voted on that I could see would lead me to dismiss him outright. I'm sure though for you, being a "hard" right-winger, you'd disagree with even just his voting record that i published, about equality and human rights.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 8:08pm Andymac2807 wrote:
Fair enough Pedro. You regard not having a clear defence policy as 'nitpicking'. 'Nuff said.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 8:13pm Andymac wrote:
Clifford - simple reason. By the time Corbyn became leader, Blair had been found out.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 8:16pm Pedro wrote:
@andymac - actually the "nitpicking" was your repeated comment about outlining his voting record, which I have now clarified twice. As for defence policy, Labour are committed to 2% spend gdp on defence, and support for renewing trident, as well as scrapping the 1% cap pay rises for the armed forces.
All of their policies and positions are on their website and through their manifesto. I wouldn't advise relying on right-wing tabloids for it, go direct to the source.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 8:27pm Andymac wrote:
So Jezza is now pro-trident? He kept that quiet - plus (if it were true) it being a 180 degree shift from his past voting record....
Not to mention the fact that his shadow defence sec seems a bit vague on the details of her portfolio.
Or am I nitpicking?
On 26 Feb 2018 at 8:57pm Pedro wrote:
@ Andy, you really ought to read, or at least remember what you read just a few hours earlier. I'll quote my own post from 3.15pm today : "I think Corbyn is a pragmatist/realist in this sense, and he is probably shrewd enough to realise he won't get ultimate support to dismantle trident for example"
Corbyn has never been pro-trident, and has stated that as much even as party leader, but he also recognises that on this issue he doesn't have the support of his parliamentary colleagues. Its give and take and the Labour manifesto is and cannot be about one individual. If you want to criticise him for that, then you best, in the interest of balance, you go hard on Theresa May for taking Britain out of the European Union, yet voting Remain in the referendum. Sometimes, its not possible to get EVERYTHING you want, especially in politics in a deeply divided nation.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 9:04pm Andymac wrote:
Pedro - perhaps Labour needs a defence policy that is clear and supported by the leadership, rather than one based on your interpretation on what Jezza might or might not think.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 9:16pm Last word wrote:
Who's it going to be............? Then we can all relax.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 9:28pm Pedro wrote:
Labour have already set out on their policies on their website and manifesto with the full support of Corbyn and the shadow cabinet and its members. From their website : "Labour Party policy is made democratically, through discussion and consultation with members, the public, businesses, experts and civil society groups".
I totally accept you're not going to vote for him no matter what anyone says or does, but almost 13m (40%) DID vote for him last year in a general election that was predicted to be a Conservative landslide. Corbyn and Labour clearly are not pushing wildly unpopular policies, otherwise Theresa May wouldn't be in the position where she relies on DUP votes for significant taxpayer cash and under serious pressure from members of her own party over her position.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 9:40pm Andymac wrote:
So just so we're clear Pedro, you reckon, if Jezza became pm next week, he would sign off on trident renewal? Defence of the realm is quite important, so it would help to be certain on this.
And yes, people did vote for Corbyn last time (as we know, he thinks he won). That's why it's important to be clear on what he and his gang really believe and would really do if elected. And i think his track record of views and associations does not marry up with the attempts of Jezza and the Corbynistas (should be the name of a bad punk band) to sell him and his cronies to us as moderate nice guys.
On 26 Feb 2018 at 9:56pm Pedro wrote:
I'm not a supporter of trident, but if he got elected on a manifesto that pledged to renew it, then yea, he would do it. Pity really, as I think its a huge waste of money, but just like the monarchy, its existence has widespread support in this country at the moment, and we live in a democracy.
I don't think Corbyn think he won the election, then again nobody won, aside from perhaps the DUP. He certainly far exceeded most peoples expectations though and this was down to Corbyn being nowhere near as "hard left" as some of the media portrayed him as via a very competent set of policies, as well as Theresa Mays own shortfalls and inability to debate properly, as well as her own arrogance for calling the election early in the first place with the expectation to fully wipe Labour out and have a massive majority. Thats our PM though, I have full confidence in her terrific judgement...
On 27 Feb 2018 at 1:33am Bob wrote:
.....yeah but back to my original point. It must be easy bring Jeremy Corbyn. All he has to do at the moment is wait for a Tory announcement and say he would do the opposite in the knowledge that he won't be in a position to do as he pledges, especially in the context of Brexit.